Building Your Confidence and Charisma as an Asian-American Leader with Misa Chien

• Allowing past experiences to teach you lessons in self-worth (22:06)
• Navigating microaggressions and stereotypes in professional settings (28:01)
• Embracing your self-worth unlocks your charisma (30:53)
• Building relationships through “riz” (charisma) (34:43)

“Asian American women are inaccurately perceived as quiet. So if an Asian American woman is not quiet and speaks up a lot, that goes against the stereotype as well. And as you get to leadership positions, you do need to speak up. And so that’s a really big thing that holds us back as well.”

“Building charisma is a really powerful tool… that, as Asian American women, we can use to get more power and more influence.”

“Our stories are so important. And they can break through racism. They can break through any biases. It puts a face to the name of who we really are.”

“Race traitor happens because you feel super betrayed by that other person because they don’t do what you expect them to do. And so that’s another term that I just didn’t even know. And I didn’t realize. It was so great to get that explanation of why, you know, why these things happen, and then I could address it more and forgive myself for having those feelings of betrayal. And it still clings onto me a little bit today. So it’s important to know these terms and to address them and understand them well.”

NICOLE

Hello friends, this is the School of Self-Worth. Welcome back. I am your host, Nicole. Today you are in for a truly epic treat. We are welcoming a woman I really admire, who is breaking ground in so many ways and honestly inspires me all the time. Her name is Misa Chien, and Misa is the founder of Authentic Asian, which is a community to help Asian American women feel less alone and more connected. I am personally a member, and I have really loved the community, the connection, the people I’ve met and all that I have learned from being part of this group.

Today I’m so thrilled to have Misa join us, because she really knows so much and has educated herself so much around all the racism and the bias towards Asian American women, particularly in leadership in corporate settings, and these are things that I’ve personally only started to really unpack. I love what Misa speaks to here, her own learnings for herself and how she shares it so powerfully with the world. Whether you are an Asian American woman or you are a woman who works with Asian American women, there is so much to learn here, so make sure you stay tuned for this conversation. And if you are an ambitious, mission-driven Asian American woman who wants to manifest a promotion in 60 days while working 20% fewer hours, DM me ‘promotion’ @ NicoleTsong on Instagram, I’ve got something there for you.

Okay, let’s get rolling on this incredible conversation. Welcome to the School of Self-Worth, a podcast for ambitious women who know they are worthy of an astoundingly great life. Join us weekly as we get on the right side of your intuition, redefine success, and reclaim your self-worth.

I’m your host, Nicole Tsong, an award-winning journalist who left it all behind to become a bestselling author of three books and work/life balance expert, helping ambitious women unlock their intuition and step into a life of fulfillment and radical joy. Every single week, I will bring you diverse and meaningful conversations with successful women from all walks of life who share insight about what it takes to be brave, joyful and authentic every day. Every episode is thoughtfully designed to leave you feeling empowered with tangible tips and advice that will lead you to your next breakthrough.

Misa, what a delight to have you on the School of Self-Worth. Welcome!

MISA CHIEN

It’s so great to connect with you and I’m so honored to be here and that we found a time to talk today.

NICOLE

A little background for me and Misa. I met her through the Authentic Asian, which is the amazing group that I’m part of that she runs that’s really, really supporting Asian women in so many ways. And there was a conversation. First of all, I love the group, Misa. So I thank you for creating the space that is just a really beautiful, safe space for Asian women to be able to talk and connect with each other. I’ve made so many really beautiful connections through that group, and I have questions that are related to something you shared on there. But before I get ahead of myself, I would love to hear a little bit more about your own journey with self-worth. What you say would be that first moment you started to recognize it might be something that’s important and valuable for yourself, because I know you have such a really diverse background that’s going to be so interesting to everybody who’s listening. But if you could start from that place, that’s sort of the common ground for everybody.

MISA CHIEN

Yeah. So when I was growing up, I think because I was kind of the one and the only often in a very non-diverse community, I was very quiet and shy. I look different than everyone else, you know, even though I do have a white mom, a lot of people would come up to me and say, oh, are you adopted? I knew that I didn’t quite fit in. Luckily, I had an amazing, great family. I was very close to my sister. My Chinese grandfather really helped raise us. I was very close to him. He was almost like a dad to me. And so even though I had a great time at home, school was kind of this fight or flight situation. I really hated going to school. I was bullied a lot. I fit right into that stereotype, the quiet Asian. And it was augmented even more because I had dyslexia. Not just mild, but I wouldn’t say severe – it’s in the middle. I could still go to school regularly, but I would have to work so hard just to get B’s. I mean, so, so hard. I built such a strong work ethic. And that was really, really challenging. I call it the ugly dyslexic duckling story, to just not have that confidence for being in school the majority of your day as a child.

So I would really savour the summers and the holidays. I still remember when I went to a new school, and it was my least favorite school. From 6th grade to 12th grade, I went to this school. It was the same 100 kids every year.  I got a tour of the school from an upperclassman that I really looked up to, and she’s giving me a tour, and she says, okay, so this is the cafeteria where we eat. This is the locker room where we change. I asked her what the little brick building over in the corner was. She replied that that’s where the stupid kids go, and I don’t need to worry about that. So I didn’t think anything of it until the next day, when my mom said I’m going to the learning center, and that’s that brick building. I found out that the brick building is the learning center. And I had to go into that building after school every day, where the stupid kids go, being labeled that. That was hard growing up. I don’t feel like I really built my self-worth at school, which is where you spend most of your time, until I got into UCLA.

I went to UCLA, a much more diverse environment, where not everyone knew me. It’s a huge school. You can kind of just blend in. And that’s where I really blossomed and grew, and that’s why I call it the ugly dyslexic duckling story, because I suddenly felt like a swan. I got discovered by the top modeling agency in Los Angeles, which I’m still with. I started several successful businesses out of my college dorm room. It’s where I found myself, and I found my self-worth, and that was huge.

NICOLE

Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that pleasure. I feel like for so many of us, we have such different versions of that one. And I love that college was really the place that made that shift for you. Where would you say, being Asian, you felt played into your journey around self-worth or the challenges you felt around it.

MISA CHIEN

You know, it fluctuates. It depends when you talk to me. I mean, I like to say UCLA was kind of my strengthening years. I became stronger and more resilient and more confident as a person. But, of course, it never stays that way. I mean, success and confidence is never a straight path, and things will come up in your life that will make you fall down, and it’s all about getting up again.

You know, I had a lot of confidence right out of college. I built a food truck, Nom Nom Truck. And it was really hard when it ended up failing, and that’s when I lost that confidence. You know, I’ve been an entrepreneur for 20 years, and it’s been a challenge being an Asian American woman. I can tell you so many crazy stories that have happened to me. Where I ask, is it because I’m Asian American or a Yemenite person of color, or a woman, or all of those identities? And I still don’t have the answer for that. Because also, being biracial is very confusing, because most people assume I’m Asian American. But a lot of people are wondering where I’m from? They know I’m not considered white. I know that. But I do feel like a lot of the stuff that’s happened to me is definitely because of one of those three things, but I’m not exactly sure of some of the comments I receive, or some of the actions that are taken.

NICOLE

I think that’s so true. I think for any person of color, and I feel the same way, too, where people ask questions, and you wonder what they’re really getting at?  “What are you trying to add? Where are you from?” Those are such  loaded questions for so many Asians, I think, in particular. And then you don’t really know what to do with that. And I’m kind of curious, how did you start? How have you learned to deal with questions like that when they come up, or you’ve been challenged, and you’re not really sure which identity in that particular situation is being challenged?

MISA CHIEN

You know, I think it depends on who it comes from. Most of the time lately, I think because of my personal brand, I’m so outspoken now. I just luckily get to mostly do business with fabulous Asian American women, so I’m not as exposed to as much of that, but when raising money in Silicon Valley for my startup, that’s when I was exposed to actually the most challenging things that would happen to me. Oh, gosh, so many things. You know, I would pitch to a particular investor, and it was so horrible. He invited his prostitute to hear me pitch to him, and that was just such a demeaning experience. I thought, again, it’s that question, is it because I’m an Asian American woman? Is it just because I’m Asian American, or a woman, or a person of color? Or woman of color? It’s all those questions, why me? Did I do something wrong? I think often as Asian American women, we blame it on ourselves.

For so many years, I blamed it on myself, thinking, did I lead him on? So there’s that. That happened. I recruited a mentor in the space, the very prominent Mandev, and after I pitched to him,  he was going to help me raise money, and he asked, “Are you going to pitch as the cute Asian or the tiger Asian?”  And I was so naive at the time. I kind of just laughed it off. But it stuck with me. It stuck with me so much that I even changed my identity. I gave up a lot of my femininity raising money in Silicon Valley. I stopped wearing makeup. I liked to wear glasses. I tried to dress more masculine. Playing into that tiger Asian stereotype, I thought that that’s what investors wanted. I really lost myself in that process of raising money. And it wasn’t until I became a mom that I really pushed myself to refine my authentic self and also start exploring those really tough stories that happened to me in Silicon Valley, and those things that happened to me where I just swept them under the rug before.

NICOLE

Well, you bring up the topic that I’m so curious about, really, because you brought it up in a call where you talked about some of the research that’s related to the stereotype that this guy brought up, the cute Asian versus the tiger Asian. And I remember when you said it, I thought it was fascinating because I realize that I do that sometimes to other Asian women as well. It’s like I just see that cuteness versus the tiger side. And which part do you relate to more? I often play way more into the tiger because I do this sort of ambitious, overachieving side – or I did for a lot of my life. And then you also mentioned a study around it. Could you just share a little bit more about the stereotypes, what the research has been about that, and then the way you became more empowered to deal with that yourself.

MISA CHIEN

Yeah, I don’t think that it’s talked about enough, and that’s why I try to post so often on social media. I didn’t really take the time to reflect on my time in Silicon Valley and also while running the food truck, on just all these small things that happened to me and why they happened to me, or these comments that were said that piled up, and how I lost myself. And I didn’t learn about it until I went to the Woman of Color and Leadership program at Harvard Business School, which I highly recommend. One of the members of our community, Linda Hill, the longest tenured woman of color professor at Harvard Business School, is actually a member of our community, the Authentic Asian. And it’s her research that’s just fabulous, and has brought this to light.

So for Asian American women, there’s one stereotype that really hurts us. And it’s that Asian American women, if they are perceived as very competent, they’re not perceived as kind. If they’re perceived as very kind, they’re not perceived as competent. So usually I am placed in the incompetent category because I have very extreme, warm charisma. I smile a lot. I really love bringing warmth to every relationship that I have. But then, as a result, that works against me, especially in Silicon Valley, I was inaccurately perceived as not competent. So actually, I didn’t even realize it, but I decided to start fighting the stereotype.

I’m now earning my alumni status at Harvard Business School. That’s probably why you see so many Harvard business school posts that I post about every time I’m on campus.  You’ll see a ton of posts.  I want to combat that stereotype and show the world who I am as much as possible. But there’s other women who are just so competent and they have trouble, say, if they’re super, super well qualified and they’re competent for a board seat. Well, board seats really depend on relationships. If they’re perceived as super competent, they might be perceived as very cold. It might be hard for them to get that board seat that’s built so much on warm relationships. So that’s an example of how it keeps us from breaking the ceiling.

There’s another big one I’d like to talk about, but I wanted to see if you had any questions about that explanation?

NICOLE

I love the explanation that you’re sharing, and it’s an interesting one because I had never heard it broken down that particular way, until you talked about it. And I really see that as existing because,  for example, I’m also Chinese American, and Chinese culture isn’t as warm. We don’t really hug people. It’s not as effusive and embracing others. My parents didn’t tell me they loved me, for a very long time in my life. There’s just not that inherent, same kind of warm feeling, but you are raised to achieve and to do really well.

I can see how that stereotype could come to be, you know, I’m a relational person like you, so I can also see, though, if you go towards that side of being really compassionate and kind, people might think you’re not capable of getting anything done. So that was my thought when you were saying it, because I was like, where do some of these stereotypes come from? But I’m assuming it also applies across the board for Asian Americans?

MISA CHIEN

Yes, for Asian American women, that’s one of the hardest things that keeps us from breaking the ceiling. Another thing, though, is that we’re inaccurately, overall perceived as quiet. So if an Asian American woman is not quiet and speaks up a lot, that goes against the stereotype as well. As you get to leadership positions, you do need to speak up, so that’s a really big thing that holds us back as well.

NICOLE

I definitely can see that, because I had that as well. I was totally the quiet kid for a very long time, and then it didn’t really matter when I was a journalist because I was always behind the scenes. It seemed really fine until I got to be a yoga teacher, and I had to stand in front of a room and speak. I had to really start owning my voice. I think women in general are challenged with this, but when you’re Asian, you grow up with a totally different understanding of what it means to speak up or you have other fears around it, or cultural pieces that get in the way.

MISA CHIEN

I feel that one, too, because I really had to move out of that one myself. The cultural piece where we’re taught not to speak up, and so that’s a big thing, too. There’s so many nuances and so many things I’m still untangling. After every single woman I onboard into our community, I feel like I learned something new through their story, and then I reflected on my story or other stories I’ve heard. So there’s still so much to unbox.

NICOLE

Yeah, I feel like that for myself. The more I look into it, the more depth there is. There’s more layers, wow!  I never really thought about it that way, which is why I love having conversations like this one. And I want to hear your next piece, but before we get there, there’s this stat around leadership in corporate America, where it’s like, 35% of leadership are women, but of that group, it’s only 3% Asian. Do you feel like this stereotype often is the one that gets in the way for women advancing – Asian American women in particular?

MISA CHIEN

Oh, I think that those are the main ones that from research, from what we’ve done so far, is what keeps us from advancing.  It’s also hard because I don’t feel like we’re given a lot of support. How can I say this? Often, we aren’t grouped with women of color, when we do have our own set of issues, and we’re either grouped with just generically women, though we have different stereotypes that we have to navigate. We have cultural biases and racial biases that are different from white women. But we’re often grouped just overall with white women, or we’re grouped with Asian men, and we have some commonalities with them, like the scarcity mindset. But for the most part, it’s very different, so we really have to keep that in mind.

That’s why I created the community I did, because I don’t feel like Asian American women have enough support, whether there aren’t enough organizations. But also we aren’t taught to get support. It’s not encouraged as much. We kind of just have tiara syndrome and want to just put our head down and work. But then we aren’t able to figure out how to navigate the corporate landscape and how to get to those leadership positions.

I’m hoping that with more programs like the Harvard Business School program I attended or the community I built, or whatever else may be out there, that there’s more resources provided, because there absolutely has to be.

NICOLE

I feel that way too, because I work with Asian American women as well. I think often we’re not directly spoken to, and that is also part of it. We’re not used to having our particular needs addressed, because they can get lumped into other groups, and so you kind of just be, “Oh well, I’m just the perfectionist, because that’s what happens to any high-achieving woman.”  But then you start to look at the root of what is causing that perfectionism, and it’s often typically cultural issues – there are different things that are behind it. So I’m always really fascinated by unpacking that. I think for myself, and other Asian American women as well.

MISA CHIEN

Definitely. I could go over so many other subtle things about being the one and the only in the room, and the one and the only Asian American woman in the room, that I just learned from Harvard. And you realize how much baggage we’ve carried over the years to get to where we’re at. I think it’s super interesting because the majority of women who apply to join our community, they’re actually in their forties, and I think it’s because by that age, we’ve been through so much.

In my twenties, I didn’t really seek help. I didn’t seek mentors. I didn’t feel like I needed help. But after going through everything I did, that’s why I built it. And I think that’s why a lot of women seek help in their forties, because they say, “Okay, actually, this is really hard, and this has been super challenging to get to where I am at, and I need support.”

NICOLE

Yeah, totally. I definitely resonate with that. I think it takes a long time for us to accept help. And then also, I think culturally, that’s not a part of something we learn either, learning to receive help. I feel like I often have to work with women at being okay with receiving help, because it’s programmed out of us by so many things.

MISA CHIEN

Yeah, we want to give, give, give. But we don’t realize sometimes that seeking help for ourselves is the best way to be the best mom, or partner or friend or boss, whatever it may be.

NICOLE

Absolutely. Then I wanted to go back to another piece as well – to that Cute versus Tiger Asian, if you remember, because I know there was something else still there that you wanted to share.

MISA CHIEN

Gosh, I could go into so many other situations, but besides the Cute versus Tiger Asian, there’s just other things I learned at Harvard. I feel so bad because I feel like I dominated that classroom. You’re in a classroom at Harvard Business School with about 90 other amazing women of color leaders, and I just kept having to raise my hand because so many ‘aha’ moments happened, and I feel like I got almost enlightened, based on my story. I just thought, ‘Oh, my gosh, why haven’t I gone back and addressed this? I just kept putting it under the rug.’

Another thing that happened is we learned about this phenomenon being the one and the only in the room, called ‘race traitor’. With race traitor, I can tell you my story, and I hope that this will be helpful to other women. I just want to try to get all these concepts out in the open as much as possible so that women are thinking, “Oh, that’s why that story was so disturbing, or that’s why that’s resonating with me for so long.”  So I held onto this story for over ten years before I addressed it. So my race traitor story happened when I was raising money in Silicon Valley, there was an investor who tried to do a hostile takeover of my tech company, and it was a very stressful moment for me and my partner, who was also my husband.

So I went to this female entrepreneurship group. It was just generically a female entrepreneurship group who all successfully raised money in Silicon Valley. I thought it was a safe space of ten women at a dinner, because that’s what they said it was. I decided to open up, and I was upset, and I told them about this investor, and I asked them how to navigate it. It was all white women in the room, except for one who was an Asian American woman. I didn’t realize this, but since she was the one other Asian American woman, I really expected to get her support the most, because when there’s so few of us in the game, especially if you’re in trouble like that, you look for the one other person who looks like you, and you expect them to be on your side, and when they aren’t, which she was not, she was the harshest critic. She was brutally hard on me, compared to the other women. It was really hard to stomach that. She just said things like, “Oh, you should have invited your investors more. This is your own fault.”  Very harsh words.

When I was in a vulnerable position, she was offering no help, when I expected her to almost be my lifeline and help me, it’s not super rational. We just naturally look for the other one who looks like us in the room. And so it’s called a race traitor when that happens, you feel super betrayed by that other person because they don’t do what you expect them to do. So that’s another term that I didn’t even know or realize.

It was great to get that explanation, because for some reason, so many difficult things happened to me in my entrepreneurship life. But that particular situation was just so harrowing.  Then suddenly I had this explanation of why these things happen, and then I could address it more and forgive myself for having those feelings of betrayal. It still clings onto me a little bit today. So it’s important to know these terms and to address them and understand them well.

I love it because the language gives you a shape to some experience that you’ve had. And I think especially because I also grew up in a mostly white suburban area, where you’re not used to seeing many of you around, right? When I was younger, in particular, it felt like a competition because only one of us is going to get picked, if there was only one other Asian person. So then you have to be the one who’s picked. It almost set that up, that feeling, I think too. So I could see race traitor being the name for that experience.

When I got older, obviously, I dropped that. But when you’re younger, you don’t really, because being Asian American separates you out from the crowd. It can feel like that when you’re younger. But then if someone else is there, all of a sudden you’re like, well, I’m not so special because there’s another Asian person there, which is ridiculous. But I think, especially when I was younger, I definitely felt that, because I didn’t know or understand my own unique qualities back then. And so race was the thing that separated me, you know? And it’s weird. A very weird entangled place in your brain to have that happen. I can see how that race traitor would come up. We’re so young, and we experience it. So young.

NICOLE

Yeah, so then what are you supposed to do with it? And then you get to be an adult, and you’re like, okay, that’s not how I want to be. We have to start to separate that out, for sure.

What would you say, then, for women who sort of feel like they might be trapped in either the Tiger Asian or the Cute Asian, what should they do to help themselves with that?

MISA CHIEN

I mean, the most important thing that I learned after attending Harvard and then also just learning from women in our own community, is that our stories are so important, and stories can break through racism. They can break through any biases. It puts a face to the name of who we really are. So telling our story, really meaningful, deep stories through social media that can cut through that. That’s a really big one. Try to be bold and outspoken as much as possible on social media just to stand out, because there’s actually very few Asian American women who are standing out, on LinkedIn for example. So I did.

I’m one of the top Asian American voices, Asian American female voices, on LinkedIn. I think there’s only a couple of us who got LinkedIn Top Voice. And I really feel I want to shout from the rooftops to just be that voice and just show that, hey, we don’t fit into these stereotypes where people are often just ignorant. They don’t even realize that they have those stereotypes built in. It’s just from the media. It’s from years and years of not being very present in the media and having those negative stereotypes. So that’s my goal, to help more women tell their story, feel comfortable speaking up, feel comfortable standing out, because also, we have to keep in mind there’s this whole cultural bias that works against us, too. America is a the most individualistic society in the world. In a score from 0 to 100, it’s over 90.

China, Japan, all those countries, they’re some of the highest collectivist societies in the world, where you aren’t rewarded for being an individual. If you’re second generation, first generation, you’re brought up with values that value collectivism blend in. Don’t stand out, don’t speak up. Well, America’s not going to reward you for that, unfortunately, whether you’re in the corporate world or an entrepreneur. You kind of have to go against your upbringing and learn how to get that voice and how to stand out.

NICOLE

I know it’s very difficult for you to explain that in a five minute snapshot, but I feel like that’s the crux, honestly, of the issue for so many women. What would you say would be one simple step for them to start to tackle that? Because I think that is a big part of it. I remember one person I was speaking to, she was telling me she had just gotten promoted to a VP, and then she’s like, “but I really don’t want to talk about it because I don’t like talking about myself”, which is such an American thing, right, versus that collectivist thing. It was fascinating.

What would you say when women are experiencing that and they’re not wanting to share their stories, or they feel nervous or scared about it? Because, like you said, a lot of it is just actually cultural, from how they grew up. How do you start to do that? What did you have to do to start being the person who would share a lot of really big stories on LinkedIn, about your own experiences with racism. How do you even start to step into that direction?

MISA CHIEN

I think it’s baby steps. I mean, it’s not like I learned how to tell my story and understand my story. Unpack it. Be open to sharing on social media overnight. It’s been years and years of self-work to get to this point. So just continue to push yourself every day outside of your comfort zone. You don’t need to jump into cold water. You can just take baby steps towards that.

I do think my favorite, absolute favorite book is The Charisma Myth. I love teaching Asian American women how to build charisma. Nicole, if you haven’t seen it yet, I do have one of the past recordings in the community workshop on that. So I think that building charisma is a really powerful tool. It can come through, and you can use that charisma through social media, in person, networking at your work. I think it’s a really powerful tool that, as Asian American women, we can use to get more power and more influence.

I’m earning my alumni status at Harvard Business School right now, so I took the personal leadership development program. That’s the first one I took, and I got this assignment where I was paired up with another classmate to find a negotiation. To reach a negotiation was supposed to be super challenging, and 90% of my class is male. So all these men who got paired up, were just facing each other off, out in the Boston weather, 30 degree weather and T-shirts, just facing each other off in the cold, with these negotiations intimidating each other. I was really scared, I was thinking I was never going to complete this exercise. And you had to get a win-win negotiation.

So I get paired up with this man, and I think, how am I going to connect with this guy? He was nice, but he didn’t have kids, so I couldn’t connect with him on that level. We were in totally different industries. I knew we had totally opposite political views. We were in different cities. It  was so hard. I was thinking, how am I going to build rapport? Then I just decided to turn the charisma on, 100%. Turn all the things I learned about body language to build rapport, connection, warm charisma, 100%. And what ended up happening is we reached a win-win negotiation in record time against all other 50 pairs of classmates.

And that’s when I thought, this is a tool, a superpower that women, and not just any women, but Asian American women, if they can learn this, it would be priceless in the workplace. So I like to teach a workshop that’s in the community. If you follow me. Sometimes I teach it for free, every couple of months. But you can also read The Charisma Myth, and it’s just unbelievable what you can learn there. And I think that being an Asian American woman can be a superpower if you learn the right tools, and if you learn how to navigate and understand both racial and cultural biases against us.

NICOLE

That’s so fascinating. Well, as you talk, it reminds me more and more about my own journey, in particular around having self-worth, it is such a first step to being able to embrace your charisma, your natural, intuitive abilities that you have to connect with people, to relate to people. And it always has to come from feeling confident in who you are. I love what you’re sharing, because it’s just part of the journey, right? We’re not here to fix anything in 30 minutes. We’re here to just have the discussion, and I know this in general from coaching work, that raising the awareness is that first step to understanding, then you can start to make different choices, do things differently.

So I’m excited to read that book and to also check out that training, because I feel like there’s more I can learn about, you know, my husband. The kids call it the ‘Riz. You know, that charisma these days, they’re always referring to it. So whatever you talk about, it’s like the ‘Riz. We have to all work on our ‘Riz. Well, I love what you shared. Thank you so much for coming on.

We always close ourselves with some rapid fire questions. So are you up for a few questions at the end? Okay. So Misa, what is the last thing that you watched on television?

MISA CHIEN

Does what I watch with my kids count, or is it without?

NICOLE

Yeah, totally. Anything that’s on the screen, it counts.

MISA CHIEN

In my world, I watch Bluey a lot with my kids. I absolutely think it’s just such an unbelievable, educational show. And also it’s light, but they learn a lot through it.

In terms of what I watch. Personally, I am embarrassed enough to say that it’s Bridgerton. I love romance. Also, I just kind of tear up when I see it, because I love how they have so many mixed race couples and so much diversity and representation there and seeing a world where mixed race couples are so accepted, and it’s not even talked about much, and that I didn’t have that growing up, you know, so my father’s Chinese, my mom is white, and I didn’t have anyone else, any other families as role models like that. Growing up, I knew we were different. It wasn’t super common. And so it’s just so refreshing to see that being so accepted on the screen. It makes me tear up when I see it because we live in a world now where there’s so much more diversity. Even as a model, I’m more in demand now than I ever was for certain previous campaigns, because there’s this huge push for diversity. And I love that.

NICOLE

I agree with you. I’m totally a Bridgerton fan. I’m always reading romance fantasy novels over here, too. So we could have a whole other conversation about this after reading the Crescent City series. Right now I’m on book three.

MISA CHIEN

We’re definitely going to have book three. It might be Crescent City.

NICOLE

We’ll talk about it offline, but yes, so I’m with you on that.

MISA CHIEN

So there’s this really fabulous book called Unicorn Space. The author also wrote Fairplay, which teaches women how to navigate balancing kids and working. She even does a card game around it on how to navigate that with your husband, which has really helped us navigate that. But then now she has a new book out called Unicorn Space, saying how important it is for working moms to still have a hobby. And when I first heard that, I was like, there’s no way. There’s no way. I haven’t had a hobby for six years.

Then I somehow stumbled upon romantic books, and it checks all the boxes, because I love, love, love Lord of the Rings, and I love Bridgerton, and I love mystery novels. So it kind of is all in one. And I feel like my writing has improved a lot from reading so much. So that’s my main hobby on the side, my Unicorn Space.

NICOLE

I’m the same way. I actually don’t watch very much television either, because I’m always busy reading.

MISA CHIEN

And also I feel like I’m gaining. I don’t feel like it ruins my IQ as much – reading versus watching TV.

NICOLE

I agree. I totally agree. Okay, next question, when was the last time you tried something new, and what was it?

MISA CHIEN

I recently went to Montana for a family reunion, and there I did something called sapphire mining with my kids. It was so fun. You just look through dirt. You sift through dirt for sapphire. So that was just a blast. And I tried a couple other new things there. We learned how to lasso a cow, and different things on the dude ranch that we were staying at.

I went to Korea two weeks ago for five days because I’m the Asian American face for Sulwhasoo, their largest skincare brand, which is exciting. So you’ll see me on Sulwhasoo in the fall. It’s really exciting. But there it was just so fabulous to be on my own. It was the first time I travelled without my kids for six years, I mean, I had my first kid six years ago. Literally, I haven’t gone to travel internationally on my own since then. It was just so many firsts for me. So, you know, it’s nice to be in such a safe environment. Seoul is so safe, and it’s also so whimsical and so fascinating and so much growth that can happen, and you can just explore the city freely. So that was just such a dream to be there and to work with such a fabulous client as well.

NICOLE

That sounds amazing. Seoul is on my list of places I want to go.

MISA CHIEN

Oh, I really recommend it. As soon as possible.

NICOLE

That sounds amazing. Okay, well, the last one is so simple. What are your top three emojis that you use on your phone?

MISA CHIEN

Heart. Heart is a really big thing in our family. My grandmother, that was her favorite shape, and she’s the family member I feel the most similar to, so I’ve adopted kind of that shape over time. So both hearts, I would say. The big one, and then one big one with a lot of little ones. Then I think laughter is important, so I do the one smiling, with the tears. I don’t know. I think that laughter is such an amazing tool. Being goofy or laughing. It can dissipate a lot of tension, a lot of anxiety, which is something I have a lot of.

NICOLE

Amazing. Well, Misa, thank you so much for coming on. I love the wisdom that you share and so much of the depth of the work that you’re doing, it’s really making such an impact in the world. So thank you for doing that. And we will be linking all the ways to reach out to Misa and get to know her below, on the show notes, so make sure you check her out. And Misa, thank you so much for being on the School of Self-Worth.

MISA CHIEN

Thank you so much. It was an honor.

NICOLE

Thank you so much for tuning into today’s episode. Before you go, don’t forget, if you are a high-achieving woman who wants to uncover your biggest blind spots preventing fast intuitive decisions, I’ve got a 72-second assessment for you, so make sure to DM me ‘quiz’ @ NicoleTsong on Instagram and thank you for being here and for listening. We read every note that we get from you about how the podcast is making a difference in your life. Please know how much we appreciate each and every one of you. Until next time, I’m Nicole Tsong and this is the School of Self-Worth.