Breaking Barriers with KING-5 Anchor Lori Matsukawa

• From beauty pageants to breaking barriers in a predominantly white industry (06:50)
• Setbacks can be a way to inspire legacy (19:22)
• Transforming adversity into stories and awards (27:31) 
• Inspiring change through the Japanese art of flower arrangement, ikebana (34:37)

“I was always told, you write what you know. So, I felt like I couldn’t really tell what picture brides really felt because I wasn’t a picture bride, but I was a child who experienced women who were picture brides, like my grandma, so I could write through the eyes of a child. And so this book focuses on a young girl growing up in Hawaii who’s taken care of by this woman. And when the young child is challenged, she finds out she won’t see her babysitter every day because her parents are moving to a new town. She gets very sad and very scared. I’m so worried about moving to a new town. And this babysitter comforts her and says, ‘I know how you feel. It was very tough for me to leave Japan and come here to Hawaii. You know, I was a picture bride’ and that’s where the story of the picture bride comes forward. And the little girl learns about how brave this babysitter of hers is. Just like any other young person would learn an amazing story from someone that they would never suspect of being so, so brave. And it’s just a way of learning and appreciating someone that you thought you knew but you really didn’t until they shared their story.”

“A new news director came to the station and replaced me with a white woman. And I was kind of put on the cable news. I was put on King, the 10:00 news on King, which was a brand new newscast which had a very teeny, tiny audience. And I was told, you’re going to build up this audience. And so I had a choice. I could stay at the station and work at King at a teeny, tiny market and continue to be on tv, or I could march off in a huff with my feelings hurt and kind of try to prove a point. But I decided to stay, and because I felt at least I would have a platform to begin this being there, I would be visible still on this platform and continue my work of encouraging young people to become journalists.” 

“I believe I was meant to stay and to be seen and to continue the work of encouraging young people to consider journalism as a field.”

“I have always thought that it was part of my purpose in life to support women, first of all, and women of color specifically, because particularly in broadcast television, broadcast news, there were very few of us.”

“Asian american kids were encouraged to be doctors and lawyers, nurses, teachers, but nobody’s parents said, ‘hey, you should become a journalist.’ So we had to talk to young people and say, ‘hey, consider journalism.’ …. Our goal was we want them to be in the chairman’s office. We want them to be in the editor in chief’s office. We want them to reach the highest goals in journalism.”

“Sometimes in the case of women, Asian American women, you have to just continue to be there so that people get used to the idea of women in leadership that look like you.”

NICOLE

Hello, friends. Welcome back to the School of Self-Worth. I’m your host, Nicole Tsong. Today I have such a special treat for you. I got to sit down with LORI MATSUKAWA, who was a journalist in Seattle and a long time icon for journalism in the Seattle area. She was an anchor for many, many years at King 5 here, and she was also the co-founder of the Asian American Journalists Association for Seattle. She is a woman who has done so much in her career, and I really, truly consider her to be someone who laid the foundation for women like me to come after her. She has been so supportive of me in many different ways. She helped launch my last book, 24 Ways To Move More. She is someone I have looked up to and truly admired, for such a long time, and today’s conversation is so expansive. We get into all the different details of her life. Her challenge is being the only Asian American woman in many of the newsrooms. She was in interesting and fascinating experiences as she grew, and audiences grew with her. I just cannot wait to share this with all of you.

And if you are an ambitious Asian American woman who wants to manifest a promotion in 60 days or less, dm me ‘manifest’ on Instagram@ Nicole Tsong, I have something for you. All right, friends, let’s dive into this really incredible conversation. Welcome to the School of Self-Worth, a podcast for ambitious women who know they are worthy of an astoundingly great life. Join us weekly as we get on the right side of your intuition, redefine success, and reclaim your self-worth. I’m your host, Nicole Tsong, an award-winning journalist who left it all behind to become a best-selling author of three books and work/life balance expert, helping ambitious women unlock their intuition and step into a life of fulfillment and radical joy. Every single week, I will bring you diverse and meaningful conversations with successful women from all walks of life who share insight about what it takes to be brave, joyful, and authentic every day. Every episode is thoughtfully designed to leave you feeling empowered with tangible tips and advice that will lead you to your next breakthrough.

I am so excited today, because we have Lori Matsukawa on. Lori, welcome to the School of Self-Worth.

LORI MATSUKAWA

Thanks, Nicole. Thanks for having me.

NICOLE

Well, Lori and I go way back, and I was so excited to get to ask her questions, because Lori and I know each other from the Asian American Journalist Association in Seattle, and that’s where we first met. I remember when I first met, everyone would be like, “Oh, Lori is coming.” And I’d be like, “Oh, my gosh, Lori is coming to our events!” Because Lori was an anchor on KING TV here in Seattle for decades, and I always think my life and my ability to do the things I do in the world, is because of trailblazers like you! So it was so fun for me to think about having Lori on to talk about her journey, and also to talk about where she is these days – because she’s retired from journalism. I had so many questions for her. But previously, Lori’s also been an amazing support of mine. When I launched my book, 24 Ways To Move More, she interviewed me for one of my events. And Lori, I’ve always felt like you have just such a generosity of spirit in the way you support other women, in particular, Asian American women. And so first, I just want to honor and acknowledge you for that. So thank you so much.

LORI MATSUKAWA

Well, thank you so much. That’s very generous of you. I have always thought that it was part of my life’s purpose, if you will, to support women first of all, and women of color specifically.  Particularly in broadcast television, broadcast news, where there were very few of us. I started in 1978, which back then, there weren’t that many of us, frankly. And it’s been kind of a goal of mine to encourage people of color, particularly women of color, to consider journalism, for one, and then to pursue it in college, and then to advance themselves to work in a bigger market, work for a larger paper, you know, have their own podcast, which is very exciting. And as the technology has changed and as we’ve matured as a society, I’ve been so excited to see it actually happen, something we started 40 years ago, the Asian American Journalists Association that you mentioned, it’s now bringing forth fruit so abundantly. It’s kind of mind blowing when you think about it, and it leads to some pretty funny and awkward moments because you get to be called a pioneer, you know? And when you think of a pioneer, you think of these craggy faced, white-haired old ladies. But in a way, we are pioneers!

You know, you’re kind of a pioneer, too, Nicole, because the podcasts, the new technology, it brings you into something new that you’re inspiring younger people to pursue. So that’s great. That’s really great.

NICOLE

Beautifully said, Lori, and the thing that I’m excited about is to really ask you about your history, because it’s particularly not in an environment like this, to find out more, because I have always wondered. I know from my experience – for those of you who don’t know, I was in journalism from early 2000 to 2012, or so, and I know what it was like at that time. By then there were a lot of organizations. AAJ was a huge support for me. It’s how I found jobs, it’s how I felt connected and had community when I was a journalist.

But I am really curious, by the time I was there, there was so much more effort put towards it. Diversity mattered within newsrooms, and representing the communities. But I can only imagine in the 1970s, like this had nothing to do with it at all. So I would love to hear your journey – because we do a pre-interview, and Lori was Miss Teen America in 1974, and I did not know these things about her. So I would love if you would share with us a bit of your journey, because as you know, this podcast is the School of Self-Worth, and I can only imagine what it must have taken within yourself to be able to say, “yes” and to put yourself forward into the jobs that you ultimately had. Being the voice on the news every evening, takes something. So I would love it if you would take us through your journey a bit, from the beginning.

LORI MATSUKAWA

Well, I was born and raised in Hawaii, and I originally thought I would be a piano teacher when I grew up, because I adored my piano teacher. So when I was a junior in high school, I began looking around for scholarship money, and a friend of mine said, “Hey, I heard about this contest. It’s called Miss Teenage America. The winner gets $10,000 in scholarship.” And I thought, “Wow, that is spectacular.” And he said, “The best part is you don’t have a bathing suit competition, so you might have a chance.”  “All right…. thank you.” I think I just had no idea what I was getting into. But I applied and I won the Miss Teenage Honolulu contest, because it required a current events test, it required a talent, and it required an interview with the panel of judges. So I thought it went pretty well. I became Miss Teenage Honolulu, represented the city of Honolulu in the national contest, Miss Teenage America, which was broadcast on CBS television out of Fort Worth, Texas. And it was terrific, because we got to meet our MC, who was an actor named Ken Barry. You don’t know this because you’re too young, but Ken Barry was a television actor and he was in a TV show called F Troop, and he was so talented. He’s not only an actor, but he could sing, he could tap dance, and he was a wonderful MC and host.

So we got to do our pageant thing. I guess there were 44 of us gals on the stage representing different cities throughout the country, and I won the Miss America pageant! I had no clue what I was doing, but I won this pageant! And for the next year, my senior year in high school, half my time was spent on finishing high school, and the other half was travelling as Miss teenage America.

Our sponsor was the Dr. Pepper company, so we rode the Dr. Pepper float at big parades, the Orange bowl, the Indianapolis 500, the Kentucky Derby, big cities. We went to New York and Miami, but we also went to small towns, because Dr. Pepper had bottlers in small towns, too. So Tullahoma, Tennessee, and Bald Knob, Arkansas, and it was just a wonderful year. But here’s the deal about journalism. Every time I went to a different town, I was interviewed by journalists, television, radio, and print. And I began to think, wow, these people have a great job because they get paid to talk to people. That was my very simple observation. So by the time I got to Stanford University, I said, “Okay, I’m not going to be a piano teacher, I think I want to be a journalist.” And I started studying journalism in college.

NICOLE

That’s an amazing story. I love that, because I actually always used to think that was one of the best things about journalism, that you are paid to basically ask people a ton of questions about themselves, talk to people.

LORI MATSUKAWA

And you go to really cool places. I can go to the Kentucky Derby and talk to people. That’s really cool. You know, that kind of thing.

NICOLE

Yeah, that’s incredible. So then did you focus on that in college, and then pretty much choose that as your career?

LORI MATSUKAWA

I majored in communication and American studies also, because I figured journalists have to know what they’re reporting about. So American studies at Stanford was terrific because we studied American literature, American history, and American political science. So it’s a terrific journalism package for me, anyway. And I worked at the Stanford daily newspaper as a reporter and editor, because they didn’t have a broadcast program. They only had a print program. Then in the summers, I applied and got internships at the paper, the Honolulu Advertiser, back home in Hawaii, so I was really gearing up for a career in print journalism. In my senior year in college,  I was ready to apply, and my print managing editor in Hawaii said, “Have you ever thought of television journalism? You know, they’re hiring women these days.” That’s what it was like back then in the late seventies, right? “They’re hiring women these days. You think you ought to apply?”

NICOLE

Maybe!

LORI MATSUKAWA

I said, “Oh, I never thought of that, okay.”  So I got an internship at KPIX in San Francisco and sent out resumes and photographs of myself to 100 different news outlets, both television and print. Out of the hundred letters I sent, I got two back that were positive. One was for the LA Times, and one was for a tiny TV station in Reading, California. So here I was in the Greyhound station in Reading, going, “Hmm, LA Times, Reading?  LA Times, Reading?”  Finally I just said, “What the heck? I’m going to go with the television job.”  Because I figured you had to be young to do that. You had to carry your own gear. You had to drive your own cardinal. And then I figured when I was wrinkled and toothless,  I would switch to print reporting because nobody would know what I looked like. That was my big plan. “Okay. Young person, TV;  wrinkled, toothless person, print. Got it.”

NICOLE

That’s an amazing story. It’s so funny, the decisions you make when you’re, like, 22 years old or the way you think about life choices.

LORI MATSUKAWA

I was in the television industry for basically 40 years, and I guess the wrinkled and toothless part never came in. And as it turns out, print journalists also became video journalists, too, right?

NICOLE

They did.

LORI MATSUKAWA

They had to be camera ready themselves. So the wrinkled and toothless thing would never have panned out.

NICOLE

I love how you thought about it, “I’ll be wrinkled and toothless someday, and they’ll never know.”

Well, I’m curious then, could you share with us, in the late seventies at this point, what was it like? Especially being a woman and then being a woman of color in a newsroom, because I’m imagining that Reading, California, was not that diverse?

LORI MATSUKAWA

It was not. I think I was the first person of color that they hired in their history of television news. And by the time I got to Portland, Oregon, my second market, it was a little bit more diverse. There were other journalists of color, but again, not too many. And I encountered a great deal of racism for a town like Portland, which you think being on the west coast would be a little more cosmopolitan, accepting. But on December 7 in Portland, Oregon, I got a very racist phone call in the newsroom. I was so stunned because I had never heard such anger and racist comments. You know, “If I had a gun, I would go out on the streets of Portland, I would shoot you Japs!”, that kind of thing.  I was so stunned, I didn’t know what to say. Finally, there was an African American co-worker next to me, and she just said, “Hang up.” So I just hung up. It was frightening, but it was my first real exposure to that kind of overt racism. And it kind of woke me up to the reality that was on the continental us. Right?

NICOLE

Well, especially you growing up in Hawaii, which is a much more diverse place, and then moving to the west coast.

LORI MATSUKAWA

Right.

NICOLE

And then going through those experiences, what do you think helped you during those times to figure out how to be yourself and how to stay in your job, frankly, when you’re getting threats like that?

LORI MATSUKAWA

Well, of course, my colleagues were very sympathetic and very supportive, and my news directors, too, they were hiring me, knowing full well what I looked like, what I sounded like, where I was from. But they were willing to take a chance on a relatively new kid in the industry. And by the time I was hired in Seattle, my 3rd or 4th year out of college, I was very grateful to get here, because again, it was a large city, it was west coast, it was cosmopolitan, and there were people of color already on the air.

Hattie Kaufman was there. James Hattori was a king. There were people who were already blazing the trail there. Barbara Tanabe had just left. Wendy Takuta was on the air. So I felt that there were people already opening the door here in Seattle. But there was no concerted group lobbying for journalists of color, and that’s why three of us started the AAJA, Asian American Journalists Association chapter in Seattle. It was in 1985 or 86. And the three of us, Ron Chu at the International Examiner, Frank Abe at Cairo Radio, and myself, were the first co-presidents. The chapter.

NICOLE

That’s amazing. Well, do you feel like back then, as an Asian woman, you didn’t think about it as you’re walking down the street, and just  living your life, and someone else brings up your race to you. Like, that’s a very common experience. If you felt that way, and I used to feel that way in work, too, I would just be like, “Well, I’m just being me, and I’m a smart, capable human with lots of ideas and things to offer.” And then it’s other people who would have different views of what was going on.

What do you feel like your experience was when this happened, when people would bring stuff up? Because I’m sure that first experience, which sounded terrible, wasn’t the only time you had experiences like that through your journalism career. I mean, you became the main anchor on King. You were on TV every single day. Even if that had become normal, because you were the one, that didn’t necessarily mean that people were always that accepting of it. So I’m curious what your experiences were like with that?

LORI MATSUKAWA

It wasn’t normally in my face as much as that experience in Portland was. But I remember there was this group called the Aryan nations. There were this very white supremacist group in Idaho, and they were kicking up a ruckus, so I really wanted to cover this story. Don’t ask me why, but I thought it was a really outrageous group, and I thought I should cover this story. Wisely, my news director said, “Lori, I agree, but I just don’t think you’re the one that should cover this story.” And thank goodness that he said that, because I probably would not have been the most effective journalist to cover that story.

But one thing that happened was, I was sent to cover the 50th anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor, and I did it not only for King, but for the NBC network affiliates as an affiliate kind of reporter, and if they wanted a live shot from Pearl Harbor, I would provide these affiliates a live shot. And apparently, unbeknownst to me, whilst I’m doing my thing in Honolulu, there were so many viewers who called the station at King and were yelling and screaming about, “My grandfather was killed in the bombing on Pearl Harbor. Why is that Jap reporter reporting about it from Honolulu? Why is she doing it? I’m never going to watch King again!” Just so many terrible calls, to the point where even the news director himself was on the desk answering phones. And from what I understand, he was actually yelling at some of these viewers who were calling in. And he says, “We sent her because she’s the most qualified. She is from Hawaii. She knows what she’s talking about. She knows the history, she knows the geography. She is the best qualified to cover this story for us. It has nothing to do with her being Japanese American.”  You know, people were very expressive, and I guess I was very grateful that he took the stand like he did. He just wouldn’t take it. He wouldn’t stand for it. He just wouldn’t stand for that kind of racism. So I had mentors in that way who just said, “No, we’re moving forward, people”, and kind of carried the market forward that way.

NICOLE

It’s so beautiful that you had people like that advocating for you, truly, because it makes such a difference starting to get people to that next level. And then my last question, because I want to talk about your book – because she also has a children’s book, which is very much about knowing your story for you –  were there ever times where you questioned, “Was this the right choice? Should I be that person?” Or do you feel like, “Oh, wow.”  Or did you ever feel like you were the one making the difference, simply by being on air night after night?

LORI MATSUKAWA

I think being there was probably the most important thing I could think of. It’s kind of cliche now, but really, at the time, I felt it was important to be the co-founder of the Asian American Journalist Association and open the eyes of news directors and editors in the Seattle area, to the fact that we existed. That became a little side gig of mine when I was  working as an anchor person. Firstly, promoting the Asian American Journalists Association, raising money for scholarships, because I would talk to editors and say, “You know, you really should hire more Asian American journalists.” And they would say, ”Well, we would, but where are they? We can’t find them.”  And I’d say, “Well, we’ll just have to get them to you.” That’s when I knew we had to start that pipeline, right? You get the young people interested in journalism first, because Asian American kids, frankly, were not encouraged by their parents, at the time, to become journalists.

They were encouraged to be doctors and lawyers, nurses, teachers, but nobody’s parents said, “Hey, you should become a journalist.”  So we had to talk to young people and say, “Hey, consider journalism.

Secondly, we had to send them to college, so we gave them scholarships. And thirdly, once they got out of college, we had to find them jobs. And so that’s where Asian American Journalists Association provided job fairs, where people and recruiters would come and hire these young journalists, right? Out of college sometimes, right out of a small market, place them, support them, and promote them. And our goal was to have them in the chairman’s office. We want them to be in the editor-in-chief’s office. We want them to reach the highest goals in journalism.

And so that was what we did for other journalists. We wanted to promote that. And I think we did a really good job, because look at you, Nicole!

NICOLE

I got my very first Seattle Times job from the New York AAJA. I can’t remember what year it was when I met the recruiter for the Seattle Times, but that’s how I got my internship with them, and that definitely started me down the pathway.

LORI MATSUKAWA

That’s right. I was able to teach young people to work together as a team, as a cohort, so that each group of young people that came to our convention were taught to stick together, take workshops together, go to the job fair together, and once they got their jobs, to stay in touch when one is moving on up to the next job –  they then contact the people behind them and next to them and say, “Hey, I’m moving. Apply for my job.”  So it becomes kind of like this ladder, a step ladder up and up for generations, we hope, of journalists.

NICOLE

Well, this leads me to another question, which I didn’t expect to ask you today, but it’s been coming up, this one statistic I’ve seen, which is not just about journalism, but in general,  55% of the workforce is women, and then of that, 35% is leadership. And then of that, only 3% are Asian American. I don’t know the stats for journalism, but I’m curious what you see in terms of barriers that still occur, to this day, for Asian Americans really stepping into leadership. Is there something that you see, or feel, like there’s more work to be done to help and support that? Because, again, I don’t know if those numbers exactly correlate to journalism, but I imagine they’re not totally far off.

LORI MATSUKAWA

I would think there needs to be a lot more visibility. We just have to place more Asian American women in positions of leadership. Like, when people see it, they can be it, right? I know that’s cliche also, but it’s really true. Which leads me to another story of when I was first appointed to 11:00 Monday through Friday night, main anchor of a major newscast. It wasn’t a very long period of time before I was replaced. A new, news director came to the station, replaced me with a white woman, and I was kind of put on the cable news –  the 10:00 news on Kong, which was a brand new newscast, with a teeny, tiny audience, and I was told, “You’re going to build up this audience.” I had a choice. I could stay at the station and work at Kong, with its teeny, tiny market and continue to be on TV, or I could march off in a huff with my feelings hurt and kind of try to prove a point. But I decided to stay, because I felt at least I would have a platform to begin with, I would still be visible on this platform and continue my work of encouraging young people to become journalists. And in a few years, this white woman left the 11:00 position, and they said, “Well, Lori, can you take her place while we conduct a search for her replacement?”  I said, “Sure, I can take her place.”  I took her place, and was there for the next 17 years. So it’s one of those things where I believe I was meant to stay, and be seen, and to continue the work of encouraging young people to consider journalism as a field. I was there, and I was going to stay there, because it provided me a platform. And I feel like it was a good choice because it allowed me to continue the work of Asian American journalists.

NICOLE

Well, you bring up something that I talk a lot about on the podcast and with people, around the emotional reactivity that can come up, because sometimes it can feel like you’re being pushed aside, or you feel like you’re not getting what you deserve. And I think this happens to people in general, but particularly when race is involved. Like, is something else at play here? And then you have to be like, “Okay, can I put aside that part of me that’s offended and upset, and then be like, what is the right pathway for me?” Because ultimately, you did that for 17 years, and then you went on to anchor the evening news for all of your years after that. Is that right?

LORI MATSUKAWA

It was kind of the reverse. I was bumped out, and two years later I was told to hold the spot until they found her replacement, and I basically became her replacement for the next 17 years. So I became the 11:00 anchor with a little gap in between, that kind of a thing, right? And thank goodness I stayed, because another opportunity came at the end. You know, retirement was coming up, and King offered this sweet package for the veteran journalists. So Jean Anderson took the package, Jeff Renner took the package, all of these senior people took the package, but they said, “Okay, you and Dennis Bounds, only one of you can take the package.” And I had seniority. Dennis was like, “Lori, are you going to take the package?” And I said, “Dennis, I am not.” And he’s looking at me with saucer eyes. I said, “Dennis, I have this project I’m working on. It’s on Japanese American incarceration. I’m doing the definitive for King TV. I can’t leave right now. I’m busy. So you take the retirement package.”  So he takes the package, he leaves.

I finished the incarceration series, and packages ran a special. It wins an Emmy. It’s my first Emmy ever in my career. And I’m thinking, ”Okay, I was supposed to stay and do this. And not to win an Emmy, but to leave a significant story for King to refer to, for future journalists to look at, to learn this history, that’s what it was for.”  So being there made a difference. For anyone who’s shunted aside, and you think, “It’s because of my race and it’s because of my gender, it’s because of my sexual orientation”. Whatever it is, you’re right.

Sometimes you have to separate yourself from that emotion and say, “Really, what am I going to do about it?” And sometimes, in the case of women, Asian American women, you have to just continue to be there so that people get used to the idea of women in leadership that look like you. “Oh, she looks like, you know, the leader I had.” “He looks like the leader I had.” They’re Asian American. So what? You know, they look like the leaders that I had. You have to be that guy or that gal.

NICOLE

I mean, everything you’re saying is so powerful, because it’s so true, being present. Part of it for me, launching a podcast is like making sure that Asian American women have podcasts. Like, how can you just be out there, being someone who has a podcast to that degree and then being able to talk and have conversations with other powerful women, so that people recognize that that voice exists, versus “I don’t know if I’m the one. I don’t know if I should do it.”  It’s so easy to kind of withdraw and say, “I’m not the one who has to do that.”  Instead of just being like, “Nope, here I am.”  Because you had a job, too, that’s so visible, and that’s a big part of it. You just being on air literally was a reminder, night after night, to see that position.

LORI MATSUKAWA

And sometimes it’s a terrible burden, too, because you feel like, “I just want to go home”.  And you just can’t quit, until it’s time to quit, you know.

NICOLE

Well, I have had other friends who are anchors, and you can walk down the street, you know, like Lori must, and they would see you, in foreign countries.

LORI MATSUKAWA

We were once in China, in a random shopping mall, and I heard, “Hey, it’s Lori Matsukawa!” And these people were from Canada. I was like, “Oh, wow, this is pretty weird.”  But it’s funny.

NICOLE

Well, I’d love to switch our conversation to your book. Congratulations first on Brave Mrs Sato.  It’s amazing, just knowing the effort it takes to go to the place of publishing a book. So congratulations on your book.

LORI MATSUKAWA

Thank you.

NICOLE

And I’d love to hear more about the story of it, because I know it’s very much about owning your origin and what it is, and it’s a children’s book. So could you tell us a little bit more about the book and how this came about.  I don’t know if it was a retirement project, but it’s been something you’ve been working on since you retired, right?

LORI MATSUKAWA

I guess it first popped into my mind maybe a decade or so ago, when my niece was doing a family history project, and I said, “Oh, who’s it about?”  To her, it would be her great grandma. My grandma.  She replied, “It’s about your grandma who’s a picture bride?” I said, “My grandmother was a picture bride?” And she says, “Yes.” And I said, “And who said?” She says, “Oh, grandma told me.”  My mom. My mom ended up telling my niece about her mom being a picture bride. Now a picture bride, for those who aren’t familiar, are these women who came from Japan to marry immigrant men who they didn’t know, in Hawaii plantations. These are men who they met with pictures. Photographs. They would exchange each other’s photographs so that when the woman came off the boat, she would know who her husband was, and vice versa. He would know who his wife was.  I would say there was very little that was romantic about it. It was basically a way to skirt immigration laws at the time.

But it was also a way for these immigrant men to actually start families, because it really terrible to think that you’re just going to work on a sugarcane plantation for the rest of your life, without getting married or raising a family.  So I find out my grandmother was a picture bride. Wow. I start doing the research. I find the ship’s manifest. Yes, she did indeed come to Hawaii on this date, 1914, at the age of 19. She was on this boat. And, yes, I got her marriage certificate.

She got married two days later to my grandfather. I’m like, okay, so she was a picture bride. And so it inspired me to do more research, and I found out that there were thousands and thousands of women who immigrated from Japan to Hawaii, alone, during this time period. It was like 15,000 women from Japan came to Hawaii, and 11,000 women came from Japan to the west coast, US. That’s 26,000 women from Japan who came to marry men they had never met. What a story, right? You’re a journalist. You go, “Wow, what a story.” So I decided to write it as a picture book, as a children’s story, because there are so many things about these women that inspired me.

First of all, they were brave to come to a strange country where they don’t speak the language, to marry someone they never met. But two, they brought with them their culture and established it in Hawaii in a brand new place. And so can I show you the cover here, please?

NICOLE

Yes, show it to us.

LORI MATSUKAWA

So here’s the cover – the illustrator is Tammy Yee. Tammy Yee lives in Hawaii, and she is just marvelous. This was her idea. She says, “Okay, here is your grandmother, the picture bride, coming from Japan.” She draws it in sepia tones. You can see Mount Fuji in the background, and it’s in sepia. And she’s coming to her new life in Hawaii, so that’s in color, and she’s looking out and thinking, “Oh, that’s where my new husband is.” But she brings with her her Japanese culture, which is following her in the form of these cherry blossoms. They follow her from Japan all the way back to Hawaii. And that’s what these Japanese women did. These picture brides brought their Japanese culture, so the story is about a woman who shares Japanese culture through language, through food, through clothing (like kimono), through flower arranging (like Ikebana), and with a young girl who begins to hear, who learns the story from this woman who is her babysitter. This is a book that’s basically based on my real life grandmother and my real life babysitter, because I did these kinds of activities with my babysitter. So she’s kind of a combined character that expresses what these picture brides meant to the people and the history of Hawaii.

NICOLE

That’s incredible. I love that you were able to do that. Well, why did you want to do it as a children’s book, then?

LORI MATSUKAWA

I guess because I was always told to, ‘write what you know.’ So I felt like I couldn’t tell what picture brides really felt because I wasn’t a picture bride, but I was a child who experienced women who were picture brides, like my grandma, so I could write through the eyes of a child. And so this book focuses on a young girl growing up in Hawaii who’s taken care of by this woman. And when the young child is challenged, she finds out, “Oh, no, I’m not going to be able to come and see my babysitter every day because my parents are moving to a new town.” She gets very sad and very scared, “What if I can’t make friends? Whoa! I’m so worried about moving to a new town.” And this babysitter comforts her and says, “I know how you feel. It was very tough for me to leave Japan and come here to Hawaii. You know, I was a picture bride.” And that’s where the story of the picture bride comes forward. And the little girl learns about how brave this babysitter of hers is. Just like any other young person would learn an amazing story from someone that they would never suspect of being so, so brave. And it’s just a way of learning and appreciating someone that you thought you knew, but you really didn’t until they shared their story.

NICOLE

Yeah. That’s so incredible. Thank you for sharing that, because I did not know about that history. And you were really also saying that understanding your history and your story is so important. What would you say about that? Why was it important for you to know that story? And what did it help you understand about yourself, your lineage, and who you are?

LORI MATSUKAWA

It really spoke to me in a couple ways. First of all, that I had this story in my family, and I had to write it down, because if I didn’t, my son and my other relatives would not know this story. So I had to write it down for them. And then I thought, “You know, everybody has a story like this.” You, Nicole, you have a story like this. You could have relatives from Sweden, you could have relatives from Cambodia or Ethiopia.

Everyone has a story like this about someone who you would never imagine did something brave, made a choice, went this way instead of that way, and influenced your family forever. So once you get that nugget, you have to write it down and pass it on to the next generation. So that’s what got me going. I said, “You know, I am so lucky. I can pass this down. Everyone should pass it down, too.” That’s my big story.

This book came out last November, so it’s been almost like a half year, three quarters of a year now. And I’ve been going to libraries and schools and, service organizations like the Lions clubs, encouraging people to donate these books to school libraries so that young people can read them and see themselves in it and write down their stories. That’s what I end up telling all of them. Write it down so that you’ll remember. It’s really important.

NICOLE

What has it been like for you? Because as a journalist, you’re trained very much that the story is always outside of yourself. Like, you’re just sharing it. You’re just the person who’s conveying it, communicating it. But this is very personal. So what has it been like for you to share something in the world that’s very personal and very close to your heart? Did it take something different within yourself to be able to say, “Okay, now I’m going to be promoting my book and putting it out there into the world.”

LORI MATSUKAWA

I don’t think it’s as personal as if it was a memoir, which I’ve actually written one, but it’s not published yet. Memoirs are a totally different thing, that is really personal, and I’m kind of nervous about that. But this was not personal in the way a memoir would be. This is personal, but again, it’s something that people can relate to. Everybody has been very positive about it, and because they can see themselves in it, because everyone was a child, everyone had a caregiver, it was maybe a relative, maybe not. Like, in this case, it was not. It was my babysitter, but they can relate to this idea of caregiving culture. Sharing, learning, and learning to be brave, that’s a really important thing. And where do you learn that? Who teaches that to you? So it’s not anything that journalists should be afraid of, or I certainly didn’t feel afraid of sharing this, because it is based on true facts. I did the research, so I didn’t have any qualms about sharing it. To me, it’s storytelling. And ultimately, as you know, journalism is storytelling. So I feel really good about that.

NICOLE

Amazing. Well, I love hearing that. Yeah, sometimes with the projects, even if it’s not a personal story, it can feel like a personal effort to put it out there. I feel like your whole career, Lori, you have just modeled it with such a clarity and a confidence, that I think for so many women, Asian women in particular, it can be hard to feel that confidence. It can be hard to embody that, so I feel like it’s important also to have such great examples of it. Like yourself.

LORI MATSUKAWA

Yep. And they, again, can find these examples all around them. They have relatives, they have friends. They have mentors, they have peers. They are surrounded by people to be inspired by, but they should also look at themselves, because they’re pretty inspiring, too. And maybe they’ve just never looked at their own lives and thought, “Oh, you know, I’ve done some cool things. Right? It’s okay. It’s okay to think that.”

NICOLE

Yeah, I love doing that. I love reflecting back for myself and with clients. We work on this a lot. Like, what are the big, bold, brave, scary things that you have done? It’s not like you haven’t. Everyone has done them. At some point. It’s just a matter of whether you recognized it that way. And then also remember, if you did it before, you can do it again. Because each time I think we take a leap, it’s like you have the memoir, or the next thing, you’re just sort of like, “Oh, my gosh, that feels so intense.” But it’s always possible.

LORI MATSUKAWA

It does take a certain bravery. But then, you know, I always say, “Well, what’s the worst that could happen? It’s worth the risk, you know, your life is just so fleeting.” And that’s why I had to write the book, because people had to know that they have stories to tell, too. And I have to go to these schools, and my husband is always saying, “You know, you’re so darn busy, why don’t you just take it easy?” I said, “Oh, I have to let people know. They’ve got to start collecting and telling their stories, there’s no time to waste.”

NICOLE

Well, I don’t think of it as, ‘what’s the worst that can happen?’  But I often think of it this way: If just one person is impacted, right? So it’s sort of  similar level. But for me, it’s like with the podcast or the book that I write, if just one person’s life is impacted deeply, then that is worth my energy and time, instead of trying to be like everybody, because there’s no way to know, right?

LORI MATSUKAWA

There’s no way to know.

NICOLE

And especially with creative expression, I find for people, sometimes they can feel, “I want to impact so many people.”  And I’m like, well, creativity is for you. And then if there’s one person who also gets it, then how cool is that?

LORI MATSUKAWA

That is very cool. And I’m glad you mentioned that, because going to elementary schools to read this book has been so rewarding. I went to a rural school in, I guess it would be Kitsap County, and I went to read to a largely Caucasian school, young kids, maybe kindergarten through third grade. And along with reading, I did a little flower arranging demonstration, an Ikebana demonstration, because the character in this book does Ikebana, and I had the school kids help me with it.

I told them Ikebana believes in very few stems in the arrangement, the fewer the better. So I want you to tell me when to stop – so I would put in three stems, and asked if I should stop now? And they’d say, ‘no’. And then someone would say, ‘yeah.’ So I’d put in another stem, we would go stem by stem. So with lots of yes/no participation from them,  I finally got to maybe six stems, and asked, “Should I stop now?” And then the kids would say, “Yes!”  Then I said, “Okay, we’ll stop now, and we’ll look at the Ikebana, you know, that looks really nice, don’t you think?” And they would say, “Yes.”  Then, as we were leaving the assembly, I could hear the students telling their teacher, “Oh, Miss Johnson, we have to have a unit on Ikebana now.” And not a single one of those students was Japanese American, or had probably never heard the word Ikebana before, but here they were! You know, books have that effect on kids.

NICOLE

That’s awesome. I love that. And it’s just simply like, being yourself, going out there is what’s changing it. Really just being a model, but also showing the way, how we can do things like that, more and more all the time. Well, Lori,  what a joy having you. I mean, I love this conversation because I just love getting to know you in this way, and it’s so much fun. And I didn’t prepare you for this, but we do also do rapid fire questions at the end.

LORI MATSUKAWA

Oh, no.

NICOLE

Yes. But, you know, you’re great on your feet. You’ve been bantering on television for years, and they’re really simple too. They’re just fun. So my first question for you then, is, what is on your nightstand?

LORI MATSUKAWA

Three books that I have started but not finished, and a fine layer of dust.

NICOLE

I’m the same way. I realized the other day, I was in the middle of five. I was like, “Nicole, you have to pick one and just finish it.”  Okay, great. What’s the last time you tried something new? And what was it?

LORI MATSUKAWA

It was just this afternoon, I went to a sushi place that served sushi on a conveyor belt.

NICOLE

Oh, it’s your first time doing conveyor belt sushi?

LORI MATSUKAWA

Right. But this was super conveyor belt. It was conveyor belt sushi and rapid delivery main, like, snack. So not only was there a sushi thing going around, but there was also, if you ordered, a side of gyoza or something. Whoosh. It would zip out of the kitchen, and there was a robot serving beverages. I don’t know what to call that.

NICOLE

Where was it?

LORI MATSUKAWA

It was right in Bellevue. It’s called Kura Sushi.

NICOLE

When I was in Taiwan, we went to conveyor belt sushi, and it was the same way. It’s like there’s two layers, right? There’s the main conveyor belt, and then above it, the fast one. You order something on the side and then it just shoots it to your table.

LORI MATSUKAWA

Did yours have the robot with the beverages?

NICOLE

I remember I had many robot servers in that one, actually. Like when you do hot pot, they have robot servers.

LORI MATSUKAWA

It was great. It was so entertaining.

NICOLE

They’re hilarious. And, yeah, they kind of stop. Because if they hit you or they can sense it, they like stop and wait, then go.

LORI MATSUKAWA

And they play this little catchy  “do, do, do, do….” Like, “Here I come with your beverages.” You know, it’s hilarious.

NICOLE

That’s so fun, because I always love conveyor belt sushi, so I always want restaurant recommendations. Okay, what’s the last thing you watched on television?

LORI MATSUKAWA

Last thing I watched on television, well, actually, I sat down and watched a Mariners game. I watched the Mariners game yesterday.

NICOLE

Oh, that sounds nice. Baseball on TV is very relaxing.

LORI MATSUKAWA

I know.

NICOLE

Unless it was a close game. Okay, last one. What are your three favorite emojis that you like to use?

LORI MATSUKAWA

Oh, definitely the smiley face, the laughing face emoji, and the shaka emoji, because I’m from Hawaii!

NICOLE

Oh, of course. Yes, the shaka. Lori, such a joy to have you on. Is Brave Mrs Sato available at all the usual places for buying books?

LORI MATSUKAWA

Independent bookstores have them wherever you are. And of course mail order too.

NICOLE

Yes, you can get them in other locations as well, so make sure you order Brave Mrs Sato. And Lori, I am just so honored that you’ve been here, and that you were willing to come on and share your story.  I just love hearing it from you and it’s such a joy to connect with you this way.

LORI MATSUKAWA

Oh, thanks for having me, Nicole. It’s been great watching your career just shoot up to the moon. It’s been wonderful. Love it.

NICOLE

Thank you so much for tuning into today’s episode. Before you go, don’t forget, if you are a high-achieving woman who wants to uncover your biggest blind spots preventing fast, intuitive decisions, I’ve got a 72-second assessment for you, so make sure to dm me ‘quiz’ @  NicoleTsong on Instagram, and thank you for being here and for listening. We read every note that we get from you about how the podcast is making a difference in your life. Please know how much we appreciate each and every one of you. Until next time, I’m Nicole Tsong, and this is the School of Self-Worth.