Unlearning Silence with Elaine Lin Hering

• Embracing silence and having agency in life choices (12:52)
• Rethinking speaking up, finding spaces to thrive (15:33)
• The impact that cultural editing and assimilation has on your ability to thrive (28:57)
• Authenticity is key in journalism and teaching (37:43)
• The debilitating cost of silence on your physical and mental well-being (42:03)

“I look at other people in my life, like my husband, who seems to have no problem with taking that time and space. What assumptions do I hold about how one becomes deserving of that space? If there is that space, how do I take it and not feel guilty about it, not be using it to make a mental list of the things I would do to not feel the pressure to relax faster? And all of that to me, has been experiments over time of, what if I took a nap during the middle of the day? And I say that in that hushed tone, yeah, not only is that allowed, but it might actually be good for me. And letting that be part of the equation. And I’ve had to use the mental hack that I’ve written about, which is if I don’t think I’m worth considering just by nature of being me. I’m choosing not to judge myself for having to do the mental hack to get there, because it still gets me to a healthier place.”

“The difference between silence that is additive or strategic and silence that is oppressive is agency. Do I get to choose when, where, and how I want to use my voice and voice not just being the words that we use in a meeting, but how we move through the world?”

“For me, the impetus for writing the book really was this analysis of women  — ‘Go fix yourselves,’ or anyone with a subordinated identity. ‘Go fix yourself and don’t take into account the other factors that silence us.’”

“Writing this book really was me finding my own voice, finding that there is worth in my own thoughts. And I still feel very much midstream in that journey. … Using your voice can be costly and messy, that comes from deep personal experience and that it is so very worth it to actually be yourself rather than feel like you need to be an imitation of someone else.”

NICOLE

Welcome to the School of Self-Worth, a podcast for ambitious women who know they are worthy of an astoundingly great life. Join us weekly as we get on the right side of your intuition, redefine success, and reclaim your self-worth. I’m your host, Nicole Tsong, an award-winning journalist who left it all behind to become a best-selling author of three books and work/life balance expert, helping ambitious women unlock their intuition and step into a life of fulfillment and radical joy. Every single week, I will bring you diverse and meaningful conversations with successful women from all walks of life who share insight about what it takes to be brave, joyful, and authentic every day. Every episode is thoughtfully designed to leave you feeling empowered with tangible tips and advice that will lead you to your next breakthrough.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to the School of Self-Worth. I’m your host, Nicole Tsong.  This week, we have got someone super special for you. I had an incredible conversation with Elaine Lin Hering, who is the author of Unlearning Silence: how to speak your mind, unleash talent, and live more fully. Elaine has such extensive experience with organizations and individuals, building skills in communication, collaboration, and conflict management. And we had a really deep and expansive conversation about silence in the workplace. So places that we silence ourselves, places that we are silenced, and especially as it pertains to women of color in the workplace. So this is a really rich, powerful conversation. Make sure to stay tuned to listen to it. And if you are an ambitious Asian American woman who wants to manifest a promotion in 60 days while working 20% fewer hours, dm me ‘promotion’ on Instagram @ NicoleTsong –  I’ve got something special for you. Okay, let’s dive into this remarkable conversation today with Elaine.

Elaine,  thank you so much for being on the School of Self-Worth. I’m so thrilled to have you with us.

ELAINE LIN HERING

Thanks for having me.

NICOLE

Yeah, it’s amazing. Well, I have been following you for some time, and I’ve heard you speak in other places. I love hearing you talk about topics that I think feel really challenging oftentimes. To women in general, and definitely to Asian American women. I always like to dig in with your own story and your own journey. So I’m curious if you could share with us the beginning of the recognition, perhaps, that you had a journey of self-worth to embark upon and what that started out as and how that looks to this day.

ELAINE LIN HERING

How much do you want to know?

NICOLE

I mean, I want to know lots of things.

ELAINE LIN HERING

And I start there, this deep pause in how did we get here? My own journey is I spent a lot of time, as I think many women do, focusing on everyone else’s needs. And I don’t think I just made that up. I don’t think women made that up. I think that is acculturation, that is sometimes indoctrination, that is being a good woman. It turns into the narrative of being a good human. You’re thinking about everybody else, making sure everyone else is taken care of. And in that, what gets lost oftentimes, is ourself. And so our self-worth also gets tied up in productivity and gets tied up in serving other people.  It gets tied up in other people’s opinions of us. And it’s reinforced by the way workplaces are structured, by often how family cultures are structured and perpetuated. You know, I’m a mother of a six year old, navigating summer, where we have to wrap up this podcast soon so I can go pick up the kid. And where is the self-worth there when it feels like you’re not performing on all cylinders, in every part of your life? So I’m not sure my story is all that different than most people’s. You know, I had a very traditional, ‘ticked all the boxes’ education, University of California, Berkeley undergrad –  ‘Go Bears’,  is what I’m supposed to say! And then Harvard Law School, and got off the path of big law into an area called Leadership Development, that I didn’t know existed. And that was my grand rebellion. My mother was really worried when I went to law school and practiced law, high-achieving, high-performing, so a lot of worth and self-worth was tied up into, “What clients am I working with? What professional achievements? have I made partner yet?”  I was the first non-white partner at a global leadership development firm.

And in all of that, though, there’s a question of where is the worth coming from? And is that validity or worth coming from my ability to channel other people’s thoughts and execute well on their visions? Or is there something inherently worthwhile, worthy about who I am?, which is where I’ve come to of if I believe that every single human being actually is worthy and has self-worth by nature of being human, and I am also human, then maybe that also applies to me.

NICOLE

I love that. I’m curious, because there is a lot in that journey. Do you remember having a distinct moment where you observed that tie-in of self-worth and productivity? Was it a realization over time? Or were there moments where you actually had to pause and be like, “What the heck is going on here? What am I really doing,  what is driving what’s happening in my life?”

ELAINE LIN HERING

Yeah, the productivity is what I call an ongoing battle, because it is, you know, and my closest friends will tell you that –  I didn’t grow up knowing how to hang out, or rest.  I knew how to work hard and meet the deadlines and outperform. I remember one very distinct moment sitting on the floor in my apartment in Cambridge, Massachusetts, with friends. I think they were looking things up on YouTube. We were in our twenties, and I was like, “So what are we gonna do? You know, are we gonna go climb a mountain? Are we gonna go volunteer at a soup kitchen?”  And they’re like, “We’re hanging out!”  I thought, ‘oh, this is what hanging out is’, you know? And they still mock me about it to this day, with love.

So this question of, if you aren’t producing, if you aren’t doing…. is that okay? And really coming to learn that, not only is it okay, but it is necessary for rest, for refueling.  It is an ongoing journey, especially. How do you find that time or make that time, when it feels like there are so many other people and things pulling – not just for time, but energy?

NICOLE

It’s such a deeply entangled place. Right. That productivity tie-in, because I find that for a lot of women, for myself and other women I work with, that first, we get better at not working all the time, and that’s the first step. Right? Like, “Okay, I’m not going to work nights. I’m not going to work weekends. I’m going to actually leave my computer at home on vacation.”  And that is really big. I will not diminish it.

ELAINE LIN HERING

We are going to celebrate that.

NICOLE

Yeah, I don’t want to downplay that because that is a really big step for a lot of my clients. But then after that, there’s also the level of productivity and spare time, which is hard. Also, I’m a big hiker.  I love to move my body and challenge myself. Sometimes it turns into all the things to tick all the boxes, as you said, but of the weekend boxes. Right? Then I have found for myself, the place that helps me the most, is reading. And I had to learn to not read for growth. I don’t read nonfiction and self-development in my spare time. I do listen to those books, but I read fiction, and then I actually relax. Although my friend and I do have a challenge for how many books we’re reading. But because we always like this, it makes it fun for us.

But I do find for myself sometimes it’s like, “Well, my only plan today is to read for 2 hours.”  And it can be really hard to just do that, because in my household, my husband takes care of a lot of the other stuff. He cleans and he does other things, so that gives me space to do that. But then it can be hard. I’m like, “I guess that’s all I’m doing. I’m just gonna sit on the couch and read.”

ELAINE LIN HERING

I look at other people in my life, like my husband, who seems to have no problem with taking that time and space. And it really makes me pull back the layers of how did we get here? What assumptions do I hold about how one becomes deserving of that space? If there is that space, how do I take it and not feel guilty about it, not be using it to make a mental list of the things I would do to not feel the pressure to relax faster? All of that has been experiments, over time, of what if I took a nap during the middle of the day? And I say that in that hushed tone, yeah, not only is that allowed, but it might actually be good for me. And really listening to our own bodies to say, what do I need at this time? What would be good for me? And letting that be part of the equation. I’ve had to use the mental hack that I’ve written about, which is if I don’t think I’m worth considering just by nature of being me. I’ve had to intellectualize it to say that negotiation theory tells me that any party to a negotiation has a set of needs, goals, hopes, and concerns. I am a stakeholder in this negotiation, and there, ipso facto, I also have a set of needs, goals, hopes and concerns. And you know what? I’m choosing not to judge myself for having to do the mental hack to get there, because it still gets me to a healthier place. That, over time, is also a reminder that there is a different way to live than the constant hamster wheel of feeling like I need to prove myself, or earn the right to exist.

NICOLE

Yeah, there are so many layers in all of this, because I’m always looking at that fine line of how can you give yourself permission to be totally ambitious, and to desire big things. Like, you wrote a book, you’re a mom, there are so many things you want to do in your life.  I am the same way. And that overachieving in high intensity, I must prove myself at all costs. And I’m kind of curious,  how do you walk that line for yourself or that definition for yourself of  “What do I get to do? Because I just want to, because I have impact I want to make on the world and things I’m here to do.”  You know, I coach a lot on purpose, who am I here to be? A lot of what I do, like this podcast and writing books, is very much here to share that. I’m here to own my voice, which is very much what your book addresses around silence. Like, if I am silent, then that is actually not going to do anything for the world. I’ll just be yet another woman, yet another Asian woman who doesn’t speak up. So it’s important. But then how do I also not let it go to that other side, that hamster wheel and constant proving, all of that piece?

ELAINE LIN HERING

Yeah. The big shift for me was thinking a lot about silence, which I know we’ll get into, but also that the difference between silence that is additive or strategic, and silence that is oppressive, is agency. Do I get to choose when, where, and how I want to use my voice, and voice not just being the words that we use in a meeting, but how we move through the world? Because at the same time, to put pressure on ourselves or absorb the pressure from others to be ‘fill in the blank’  is also not centering our own agency or our unique purpose in the world. So it’s been a lot of experimentation and ongoing listening of what do I want to do? If I have one life to live, how do I want to live it? The choices I make today add up to be my life. And maybe from the outside, I look more ambitious than I actually am, because it wasn’t ”my goal is to write a book”, so I’m going to write a book. It really was looking at the leadership material around us and having taught skills for negotiation, difficult conversations and feedback tools and frameworks out of the Harvard negotiation project from my colleagues for decades, and thinking a lot of it seems useful, and there seems to be this big missing piece around silence.

When we talk about using our voice or extending agency, the advice so often boils down to just doing it. And as much as I love a good Nike slogan, ‘Just Do It’, it also means that the message comes through that as women, you need more courage, you need for confidence. Go fix yourself. And then you might get promoted, then you might get a seat at the table, then you might deserve to get a break, but probably not, because systemically will keep overworking you. And that analysis felt incomplete and irresponsible. So then for me, the impetus for writing the book really was this analysis of women, go fix yourselves, or anyone with a subordinated identity.

‘Go fix yourself’ doesn’t take into account the other factors that silence us.  I think we’re answering the wrong question. Instead of ‘how do I speak up’, I think the question is, ‘what role does silence play in our lives and on our teams and our organizations?’ Because if we can ask a more accurate question, we have a better chance at moving the needle and creating spaces where we can actually thrive. So then it was a question of ‘is the system actually going to see it? Is the system publishing going to get it? And are they going to be willing to take a bet on someone who does not look like the majority of people who write business leadership, personal growth books, smaller platform, not cis, white, male, first time author?’ And it really was an experiment to say, ‘I have very little to lose. Let me and my agent go out and see if anyone’s interested’,  and publishers were interested. And then this book came forth, and then it was the pressure to, “Oh shoot, I sold a book. I have to write it. Never done that before. How do you figure it out?”  So I shared that. I think when we look at other people, we’re looking at their outsides when we experience our own insides, and that no matter how much someone might seem like they have it together or their life fits and makes sense, it doesn’t feel that way. But taking one step and then another step, each step reveals something. Learning from the information that you get, gets you to a next place, to then make a next decision and a next step. And that integrating the real time information that we get and checking in with our purpose, most of the time, leads us down a path of actually living in a way we might be proud of. And that in retrospect, the path makes a lot more sense, even if it’s nonlinear and has a lot more zigs and zags than we might hope.

NICOLE

Thank you for sharing all those pieces. One of the things that came up as you were speaking, and I thought this many times during the book, too, is there’s this fine line between the responsibility of the place, the culture, and the responsibility of the individual. I’m kind of curious for you, who did you think you were writing towards in the book?

ELAINE LIN HERING

This is the million dollar question that we went cycles over, including, can it be both? And I’m almost more curious to know what you think and what landed. So maybe we’ll integrate that as part of the equation and conversation. I had two audiences for the book. One of my primary goals with the book was for people who have long been silenced to feel seen, known, and heard. For women in particular, and women of color to say, “Oh, it wasn’t me.  You know, everyone told me I had imposter syndrome. Everyone told me I needed to go to assertiveness training. Yeah, I’ve learned silence over time, but it’s this thing called silence, it’s not me. I’m not deeply, fundamentally flawed, no matter what my grandfather once told me over dinner.” That was one reader. The other reader was, and is, a well-intentioned leader. Sometimes we are both the people who have been silenced and the well-intentioned leader, meaning, regardless of our good intentions, we so often end up inclining the people around us towards silence, and particularly if we are leading in the ways that we have observed or experienced, rather than thinking about, “What do I want to do and how do I want to lead and what imprint do I want to leave on the people around me, needing to invite each of us in to acknowledge the power we have and to challenge us to create those spaces where voices, not just our own, but voices, are welcome and invited and supported?”  So this is my question to you, as to whether I’ve achieved that.

NICOLE

Well, it was interesting because, you know, I’m on the personal development side, and the work I do with my women is very specific around, “Where are you silencing yourself? Where are you not speaking up, being visible?” And I am not an advocate of doing it in the ways that I think a patriarchal white culture expects. At the same time, where are you also holding yourself back? And that is a fine line for them, right?  Where is it that you’re holding yourself back, because that’s what you were taught, or you learned it or you saw your parents do it, and then there’s this level of where are you forcing it?  I come very much from that side. I also know what happened with the book, for me, is it kind of expanded my understanding of saying, “Okay, where in the system can you start to create change?”  

Because the other thing from the personal development side, is that we can’t actually change the system individually. Right? You can change it as an individual to start to create change.  I own my own business. I get to create the culture of my business. So I purposefully hire women of color. There’s a lot that we do within my business to make sure that’s okay. And we’re teeny tiny, right, compared to a big corporation?  So it was an interesting thing for me because sometimes I think it can be challenging as a woman. You’re like, well, if that’s the system, I’m just so screwed, versus how do we really feel empowered to then be able to acknowledge our own complicity in how the system is existing? Also, when do you stop fighting it? Because a lot of times with my women, what we work on is just getting to a place where your nervous system is not constantly fried, and you’re not anxious and pissed off all the time at your bosses or whatever.

You just need a good, stronger baseline to make a clear decision, and perhaps you’re actually not aligned with where you work. And if that’s the case, then we make a new choice and go somewhere else. But you fighting it isn’t going to do anything for you, except make you more stressed, anxious and worked up. So I don’t know if I answered your question, but that’s kind of what came up for me when I was listening to your book and thinking about the concepts that you were presenting there.

ELAINE LIN HERING

Yeah. And a big piece of it was, look, we can own everything that you just talked about, and it may still not be enough because those systemic changes or the changes of our direct manager and leader, that’s their work to do. So my work over time, my hope with the next three to five years, is that unlearning silence gets embedded in leadership development programs in corporate spaces around the world, so that the leaders who otherwise wouldn’t have picked up the book, start owning the content in chapters 5 and 9, which is on how we silence others and how to stop silencing people, because there’s only so much we, as women, can do. And that’s not to say that we don’t have power, but to draw a healthy boundary around the work that is ours to do, and what others might need to own and be accountable for.

NICOLE

Yeah, that’s interesting, because I do think of it. I think for my whole thing that I work on is, how do we not give up our own power? And that is a big journey, right? That is a really big journey for women. And like you said, there obviously are always systemic things that need to be changed. For me, I always grapple with that. Where can we, really? Because I always know change starts with myself. But if you are the leader reading the book, then you could actually be that person who makes that change. I’m not that part of the audience per se, except perhaps within my own business. It was just an interesting thing because I could feel you were moving between the two things in there, and it was interesting.

ELAINE LIN HERING

I mean, if I’m honest, I’m dancing around white fragility in writing this book. I’m dancing around male egos. Someone said to me, Elaine, I was surprised that it wasn’t an angry book. And I was like, yeah, I’m glad it didn’t read to you as an angry book, it really genuinely is meant as an invitation, with the greatest compassion. If you are a leader, whatever background, with the intention to support the people around you, may this question around silence be able to bring you more in alignment with who you intend to be, with your own purpose.

NICOLE

Absolutely. I feel like there was so much in there, it’s just a really big, rich topic, because it’s always that question of, are you being silenced? But then how are you silencing yourself? And then what I had to learn, eventually, is that silence can be very powerful. A lot of times, I think what people pick up is, you have to be the loudest, most assertive one. Well, power comes from the people who are quiet, too, and the ones who are listening. And you often find very powerful people don’t say a whole lot, and really understanding that, because once you are in your own power, you are more capable of being that person. But it’s a journey to get to that point completely.

ELAINE LIN HERING

And the more that we can shift perception around what leadership looks like, or competence looks like that, I want to ask the quieter person in the room, “Hey, what’s running through your mind? Because you always have such great insights, or what are the rest of us missing as we’re yammering around.”  Right?

NICOLE

Right. I think of it, too, not being in those rooms, per se, but how do you structure that conversation to make sure that everyone gets a say, you know?  I ran a nonprofit board for a while, and you have to do that, otherwise just the loud people are the one’s always talking. I’m very direct now in my life, but I didn’t used to be, and I didn’t always used to be the person who spoke up. And I would say I’m not always like that,  but if there’s a situation where the only way to get what I want is to speak up, I absolutely will. It was something I had to learn and figure out, but it can be difficult, because it depends on the environment. If I’m on a Zoom call of 200 and the only way to get attention is to raise my hand, I will, but not everyone will do that.

ELAINE LIN HERING

Yeah, and to me, it comes down to intentionality and design. We spend so much time in our products talking about user experience, and yet why is there a 01:00 p.m. meeting on the Thursday in a time zone that doesn’t really work? I don’t know. It was set up by three project managers ago. Are we just defaulting to what has been done on autopilot, or are we designing the way that we communicate? Because when we just default, we default to the patterns and preferences of the people with the most hierarchical power or longevity, within a team or organization, without considering in what ways does that pattern of communication create an undue barrier to entry in the conversation, not actually getting us to the outcome that we want, presumably, which is solid information from different perspectives that allow good decision-making.

NICOLE

Absolutely. Just switching gears slightly,  one thing that really stood out to me in the book is when you talked about cultural fits. For me, it’s like telling the part of who you are. And then the question I had around this was more about the difference between editing yourself and culture editing you? How do you start to navigate that?  I’m just checking to see if I explain this succinctly enough for our listeners, or maybe you should explain it to them.

ELAINE LIN HERING

When you say cultural fit, which part are you thinking of?

NICOLE

I think it was just the part where you’re saying about the cultural fit, where it’s the part of you who is edited out that form of silence. So when we decide that that’s not a cultural fit, we could even go into cultural background. I’m Chinese American, so I might have edited out that part of me – and it’s just like a silly one – but when you go to dinner,  one person always grabs the bill and pays for it, and that’s how it is. But you edit that out in America, because that’s not really how it goes. Literally. Just probably end up buying dinner for everybody all the time instead of having dinner together.

I think about that. But that’s a cultural thing, which I edited out because culturally, that’s not really how it goes. Unless I’m with family, then we definitely still do it that way. So I think of it that way. I’m not sure how that applies directly into the book, but it made me think about what’s the part I’ve edited out? What’s the part that culture has edited out of me, and that I’ve just done to assimilate?

ELAINE LIN HERING

And they’re so often synonymous, right?  It is really hard to parse what is a cultural message that I’ve internalized, or that I have decided to edit out, or I’m choosing not to share this part of myself. I’m choosing not to implement this practice that may or may not have come from a culture. So much of that happens in a way that is not intentional, that we are not aware it is even happening. It’s just over time. “Oh, I wonder why I haven’t shared this identity of mine?”

Sometimes in the workplace, in particular, it is active concealment. Let me not highlight the fact that I am a mother because I know, or I have been told by other leaders, that being a parent, specifically a mother, means that I am seen as unreliable or not able to take on big challenges. So there is that conscious editing and censoring, including then very often some conscious revealing, which I do much more these days, because I feel like I have enough credentials, people tend to still hire me. There’s enough proof that motherhood hasn’t compromised my effectiveness as a professional and I want to normalize it, in the way that someone more junior or newer to an organization might not have that. I see that as a privilege. And how do I use that to change the narrative over time? The key for me is, are you aware that you’re even doing it?  And the awareness and the intentionality goes back to agency.

Am I choosing to not disclose here because……. fill in the blank reason….. or do I not even realize that I’ve never mentioned it? You know, a story I often tell when I’m speaking is that I was part of an entirely white team for a long time. It wasn’t until ten years into my tenure within the organization, we were on Zoom, and an Asian American admin, who had joined our team, was eating a bowl of ramen for lunch with chopsticks, that I realized in my ten years, I have never seen anyone use chopsticks. And that when I’m on camera, I don’t use chopsticks, even though I use them every night. That was such a moment of, in what ways do we edit out parts of ourselves without realizing, not because anyone told us we had to, but because mimicry is such a powerful force made more explicitly? Some of the books on influence will tell you, if you want people to like you, say yes to you, want to work with you, you should look, and sound like them. Don’t use chopsticks. And particularly when you are the only, the first, you already stick out so much anyways, and you see that the table feels so tenuous.

The Australians would call it ‘tall poppy syndrome’. Why would you stick out differently? So are you aware that you’re doing that editing out? Is it intentional? For what purpose? Are you okay with that? Are you not okay with it? Is it a rule or an assumption that is implicit or explicit? Is it negotiable? Would you want to clarify it? Is that the battle that you want to fight? I think there are a lot of different leverage points along the way, but it all starts with noticing.

NICOLE

Yeah. It feels like when you say it that way, there’s just so many complex decisions to be made along the way to really be yourself in those environments. How do you keep doing it? Is it that simple? It’s like, “I’m just gonna eat my ramen with my chopsticks today, and then that’s it. It’s just gonna be really simple that way.”

ELAINE LIN HERING

Ramen is now in.

NICOLE

Right? I know. It’s very cool. All the Asian foods are so popular now, which they weren’t 10 or 20 years ago. They really weren’t. It used to be if I wanted to eat dumplings, people were like, what? Now everyone’s ‘yes’ to dumplings.

ELAINE LIN HERING

Let’s go!…  Not even dumplings. But like xiaolongbao.

NICOLE

Yeah, totally. I’m in Seattle, and people know specifically,  we have xiaolongbao. Everybody knows that. They’re like, “I want soup dumplings.” Great! But it didn’t used to be that way.  I also think about too, because for me, a lot of the suppression was cultural, around foods.

But then there’s other cultural pieces. I think a lot about how in Asian communities, in particular, the collective and the group is more important than the individual, and that gets to be such a battle for immigrant children, immigrants themselves, to be in the super individualistic culture, when you were not raised that way, and then you’re expected to be like so dominant and bold and that’s just not how you’re raised, on any level.

ELAINE LIN HERING

That, to me, is exactly ‘the both’. We were talking earlier of how do I own what I have learned, what has made my culture, my background, my family, my ancestors, my lineage strong? And if that feels aligned with who I am, because there’s a nature nurture question, then how do I lean into that and embrace that and lead in my way? That’s the opportunity of what is my way going forward, rather than where I’ve come from or what’s around me. And how does the world around me recognize those potentially quiet or different behaviors also as high potential or leadership? That’s the work that the environment around me, the existing leaders with influence and power, need to do. And my work is to figure out how do I want to show up.

NICOLE

It’s so true. Well, I would love to switch gears briefly now to your book journey and the self-worth journey you had to go on to write it and then to market it. And what was that like for you?

ELAINE LIN HERING

I mean, the book is titled ‘Unlearning how to speak your mind, unleash talent and live more fully’ in the US version, and the UK version ends with “Lead, with courage.” And very honestly, it is the meta. The experience was the book on a meta level. Everyone says writing a book turns you inside out. This felt next level from, you know, will anyone buy it? Any publisher buy it? To the publishers bet big on me. I better deliver so that I prove that women or women of color can actually deliver on book deals, and publishers continue to bet on us to. Do I have anything to say? To is anyone other than my mother going to read this to, oh, gosh, what is my mother going to think, to doing it? And people responding in such beautiful, authentic ways to, wow, you put a name, you put language to the thing I was experiencing. I mean, writing this book really was me finding my own voice, finding that there is worth in my own thoughts.

And I still feel very much midstream in that journey. The parts of my journey that are not visible, is that part and parcel to writing and launching the book was separation from the place that I thought was going to be my professional home, as a way of exercising my own agency, living into my values, getting to preserve my voice. So when I say that using your voice can be costly and messy, that comes from deep personal experience, and that it is so very worth it, to get to actually be yourself, rather than feel like you need to be an imitation of someone else.

NICOLE

Well, what a worthwhile journey. I remember when I was a journalist, before I decided to start taking yoga teacher training. I realized that the job was not to really teach yoga poses, although you do do that, but it’s actually to be the most authentic version of yourself, because that’s how people relate and connect to the teacher. That’s a job, just to be authentic. Like, that’s all you have to do. I thought this is really hard, but it is an interesting and amazing journey. I was really lucky that that was my second career. Now, as an entrepreneur, I have been stepping into roles that have required me to be my most authentic self for 15 years now.

But it is an interesting thing because when you know, most of your life, you’re not told to be authentic. You’re told to play the game, do things a certain way. That’s very much how journalism is, do things a certain way. That’s how you rise up the ladder. So I love that you’re saying that. And it is extremely messy. My own story is also very messy, because being authentic means often going against the grain of what expectations are, or what other people think you should be doing.

ELAINE LIN HERING

And not being. There’s so many calls to be your authentic self, lead authentically and do the actions and reactions and behaviors of what the people around you are saying, that actually support and create the conditions where it makes sense for you to do that. Otherwise, why would you? Which is what takes me back to agency. And I know our common value of living purposefully and intentionally, because it is really costly at times to be authentic.

NICOLE

Yeah. Because when you are authentic, people can’t always accept it or be okay with it. There’s a good reason I run my own business. I would say you couldn’t hire me anymore because for me, it’s very much about expression. Being able to be in action about expression is very particular. And it’s hard when you’re in an environment that’s not necessarily okay with those actions. And I’m not saying to everyone, you have to be an entrepreneur for this, but it’s still an interesting thing. It’s like a dilemma for a lot of people. What does authenticity look like? How do I do that? And how is that going to change my life? And now this sounds scary, and I don’t know if I want to do any of it. Right?

ELAINE LIN HERING

Yeah. I mean, all of that is the deep work that doesn’t fit nicely into 30 minute increments. You can’t stir it up and then put it back in the box, or the can, for your next meeting. If you’re convinced or intrigued by living that way, how do you embark on that journey often, with someone like you, Nicole, holding space for and creating that journey, to be able to do it in a thoughtful, not overwhelming, but probably still messy way, because humans are messy, and our humanity is messy.

NICOLE

Yeah, and it is messy. But I think oftentimes, we’re afraid. I was definitely raised to be like, “You don’t want the mess. Messy is to be avoided.”  And I’m someone who’s also been through a divorce as well as on my third career. I’ve done a lot of things very unorthodox and messy.

Once you start doing it messy, it doesn’t make it easier each time, but you at least understand that messy is going to be part of it, and that’s okay. Some of you listening probably want it to be a little bit messier, but that’s also very terrifying. Then we have to learn how to navigate that, you know, what is the truth? And to me, the big part is the cost of it?  Of you not doing it? And when that cost gets really high, that’s when people start to fall apart.

ELAINE LIN HERING

And that the cost is always there.

NICOLE

Yeah. Even if you’re not falling apart, that cost is there in the background, constantly just talking to you.

ELAINE LIN HERING

Or not talking. It’s talking to you and you’re not listening. So it’s internalized in your body, and then it shows up in hair loss and insomnia and rashes. Not that I pointed to any specific experience at all.

NICOLE

Oh, yeah. Like hospitalizations. I have heard every story you can think of for physical ailments.

ELAINE LIN HERING

And so let’s parse that out, because this was a big piece. People ask why do you want to talk about silence? Silencing ourselves, our own needs, desires, wants. Having to silence ourselves. Walking around on eggshells or feeling like that is the only way to stay in a relationship, or at work, keeps our nervous systems on chronic high alert, which they were not meant to do. It’s a can of worms, but it is ultimately to get to a healthier place. Also to mitigate that social isolation that comes from thinking, “It’s just me”, because it is not just you. There are very few things that are new under the sun, that someone else has not dealt with, thought about, navigated, and that the more we talk about it and are able to share, hopefully someone knows, “Oh, hey, me too”, right? That there is a way forward, usually together, rather than alone.

NICOLE

I think it is really important to talk about the physical cost too, like you said, because it is the first place that manifests for most people when they’re not paying attention to it. Understanding that it is so common is crucial. Women come into my groups and they’re like, “Oh, we’re all dealing with the same things.” I’m like, “All of you are dealing with the exact same things. You just didn’t know because you didn’t talk about it to anybody else.” But then you come in here and you’re like, “Oh, there’s something really beautiful in that.” Then you just feel more relaxed. You’re like, “Okay, I can handle this, and I can figure this out,” versus being in that stress state.

ELAINE LIN HERING

Totally. And in the book, I talk about that as double pain. I mean, this is one of the interesting things about writing a book—not knowing what my own voice was. Apparently, my voice is deeply researched because it needs to be, as I’m an Asian American woman in America and in corporate spaces. You know, apparently I referenced the Golden State Warriors, Top Chef, Queer Eye, and Mario Kart. And that is part of my voice. But the Mario Kart reference is to a double pain. There’s that initial pain of job loss or a cancer diagnosis, whatever it is, or nasty feedback from work. Then there’s the double pain that is magnified of thinking it’s just me or I can’t talk about it with anyone. So it is incredibly healing to come together and realize, “Oh, it’s not just me.” And that in navigating it together, we can at least solve for the double pain, even if there are no quick fixes to that initial pain.

NICOLE

Yeah, that’s so beautifully said. I mean, I really feel and always hope that people get that from the podcast too. That’s why I like having people share the stories, because I think it’s important for us to remember, like even highly successful people like you, who have a book that’s out, that’s doing really well, that people can be like, “Oh, there’s so much to that story that I relate to”, and then, “I just need to be on my own journey of what that looks like.”

ELAINE LIN HERING

Well, and I don’t know if you asked it or it was embedded, but the hardest part of this book journey is actually how do you play your own game? How do you stay on your own path when there are all these external metrics of success, expectations from other people, from yourself, and the added pressure of  what data point do I become for other people’s decisions and how am I impacting other people’s opportunities going forward? And that real life doesn’t stop. Real life doesn’t stop while you’re doing it. So that piece of your own journey, your own path, and that is going to look beautifully and uniquely different from anyone else’s, because no-one else could live your life.

NICOLE

Yeah. And no-one else except you has written your book.

ELAINE LIN HERING

It’s true. It took me a really long time to get there, of there aren’t that many people who could have written this book. And how do I use that for good, right? All the dancing and the weaving that we talked about, that’s my best attempt to-date and giving myself that license to say, this is a point in time. I will continue to learn as everyone else continues to learn. And my hope with the book is that it catalyzes a conversation that helps us talk about silence, recognize it in our own lives, unlearn it, and really be able to live more fully.

NICOLE

Well, thank you for modeling it and being one of those. I feel like it’s so important. Every time a woman does own her voice is yet another example of it. So thank you for being that person.

ELAINE LIN HERING

Of course.

NICOLE

Well, let’s go into our rapid fire questions. They’re always so fun. Okay. They’re simple, though. What was the last thing you watched on tv?

ELAINE LIN HERING

Alex versus America.

NICOLE

What is that about?

ELAINE LIN HERING

Alex Guarnaschelli. Amazing. Kick-ass female chef. Battles other chefs on a reality cooking show.

NICOLE

So fun. I love it. What is on your nightstand?

ELAINE LIN HERING

Chapstick. I just took a cookbook off. The cookbook was Made in Taiwan, by Clarissa Wei.

NICOLE

I love that you read cookbooks before bed. Is that, like, your calming to be there? Apparently?

ELAINE LIN HERING

I really like food, so that’s my television and book consumption right now.

NICOLE

I know. I used to be an avid Top Chef watcher, but then I got rid of Bravo, so I don’t watch it anymore. Now, I just don’t watch any cooking shows. But when I’m into it, I’m really into food. So, I’m always like, “Let’s think and talk about food all the time,” unless I’m reading a book about something else.

Is your family, like while you’re eating the current meal, you’re talking about the next meal?

ELAINE LIN HERING

So this is the thing. My current family, meaning my husband and kid, do not share the same love of food. So it’s a lot of texting with my best friend who bought me the cookbook.

NICOLE

Okay.

When was the last time you tried something new? And what was it?

ELAINE LIN HERING

Yesterday, I tried reusable water balloons and trying to impose some sort of shared understanding about the rules of water balloon fights with my son and his friends. I was unsuccessful in trying to institute common understanding about the rules, but it was a hot day, and the water was refreshing.  Okay, so maybe I also tried to reframe, which is not new. It is an ongoing journey.

NICOLE

Yes. I love that. That’s so fun. So they’re not supposed to explode them?

ELAINE LIN HERING

They’re magnetic water balloons, which is actually fantastic. So you get less of the plastic waste, and you just refill them and squish the water out. Repeat. And they need a target.

NICOLE

Yes. That’s what I feel figured for six year olds. All right, last one. What are your top three most used emojis?

ELAINE LIN HERING

Ooh, the hand clap. I don’t know. I’m doing hand motions with this. The heart face palm.

NICOLE

Face palm. Amazing. I love it.  We use all the emojis, but I love hearing the top ones – it’s pretty funny.

Well, Elaine, thank you so much for coming on and sharing with us. We are going to link all of her stuff in here, her book and her website, just so you guys all can get to know Elaine better. And Elaine, just thank you so much for being on the School of Self-Worth. I’m so grateful that you shared your wisdom and your time, both through your book and with us and our listeners today.

ELAINE LIN HERING

Honored. Thanks for having me.

NICOLE

Thank you so much for tuning into today’s episode. Before you go, don’t forget, if you are a high-achieving woman who wants to uncover your biggest blind spots preventing fast intuitive decisions, I’ve got a 72-second assessment for you, so make sure to dm me ‘quiz’ on NicoleTsong on Instagram, and thank you for being here and for listening. We read every note that we get from you about how the podcast is making a difference in your life. Please know how much we appreciate each and every one of you. Until next time, I’m Nicole Tsong, and this is the school of self-worth.