What does equity actually look like in everyday life—and how do we begin dismantling the systems we’re all swimming in?
In this powerful conversation, Nicole sits down with equity educator and former public defender Pooja Kothari to explore the deep connections between self-awareness, systemic oppression, and personal responsibility. Drawing on her years defending marginalized clients in Brooklyn’s criminal courts, Pooja shares the moment she realized that even people committed to justice can unknowingly absorb and perpetuate the very systems they’re fighting against.
Together, Nicole and Pooja dive into the complexities many Asian American women face navigating privilege, oppression, and the “model minority myth.” They unpack how systems of power operate in subtle ways—from the stories we tell ourselves to the language we use every day—and how we can begin to interrupt those patterns with curiosity, compassion, and courage.
This episode is both deeply reflective and incredibly practical. If you’ve ever wondered how to stay hopeful while confronting systemic injustice, or how to take meaningful action in your own life, this conversation will leave you with new ways to see the world and your place within it.
“If you’re not careful of your own ability to oppress other people, you inevitably will do it, even if you believe, ‘I’m doing the right work, I’m protecting the most vulnerable people.” Pooja Kothari
“It’s a very dangerous situation because of racism and all sorts of transphobia, ableism, and misogyny– I like to say, we inhale it, and then we exhale it. There’s no way you will inhale this oppression and not inevitably exhale it.” Pooja Kothari
“When you take the LSAT, or you’re in law school, you learn a lot about this word ‘assumption’. In every sentence, there is an assumption baked into it… If you read a sentence, just be curious about what you have to believe for that sentence to make sense. What do I have to believe for me to agree with this sentence? That’s you finding the assumption in the sentence and challenging that assumption.” Pooja Kothari
“My job is always to find hope. And so that’s how I think of it. It’s like, how do I make a decision or a choice that makes me feel hope?” Nicole Tsong
“Are we distracted or are we on the mark? I think about it with my kids, with my wife, where we’re living, how we’re living, the decisions that we’re making – are we doing this in a way that’s dismantling racism, or are we doing it because we’re distracted by it?” Pooja Kothari
“So many cultures have this, you know, when you say the collective…our cultures have this, ‘what will people think, or what will people say?’ It is just so powerful that it’ll stop you in its tracks.” Pooja Kothari
“We have to just constantly be aware and we have to constantly, no matter who you are, look at where you are participating in it in a way that actually doesn’t support you.” Nicole Tsong
NICOLE
Pooja, welcome to the School of Self-Worth. I am so thrilled that you’re joining us today.
POOJA KOTHARI
Oh, thank you so much, Nicole. I love talking to you.
NICOLE
So I love talking to you too. I know I had the great honor of being on a LinkedIn Live with Pooja a few weeks back talking about equity. And I just was like, I loved the conversation so much. I wanted to have you come here into the School of Self-Worth and really share your journey and the conversation that I think will be a really powerful one around self-worth and equity, particularly as it relates to Asian American women.
Okay, friends, let’s dive into this amazing conversation. Welcome to the School of Self-worth, a podcast for ambitious women who know they are worthy of an astoundingly great life. Join us weekly as we get on the right side of your intuition, redefine success, and reclaim your self-worth. I’m your host, Nicole Tsong, an award-winning journalist who left it all behind to become a bestselling author of three books and a work-life balance expert, helping ambitious women unlock their intuition and step into a life of fulfillment and radical joy. Every single week, I will bring you diverse and meaningful conversations with successful women from all walks of life who share insight about what it takes to be brave, joyful, and authentic every day. Every episode is thoughtfully designed to leave you feeling empowered with tangible tips and advice that will lead you to your next breakthrough.
So Pooja, I would love to hear from you first, just a little bit about your journey and how you got to the place you are today doing equity work, and how self-worth also played into that for you as well. Oh my gosh, big question.
POOJA KOTHARI
I know, to begin, big question, rich history. Thank you so much for asking that question. As a kid, I always knew I wanted to do human rights work. But as I grew and went through my education, I realized there were just so many avenues to jump into in that area. After I did my master’s in international relations and really started to understand all the different levels of human rights work that there are, I realized that I needed to be in law school. So after law school, I became a public defender, which was my dream since- it’s the reason I went to law school. Thinking about what human rights work meant to me at that time of my life, liberty was the most- was the human right that meant the most to me. I mean, there are all sorts of human rights.
There’s healthcare, there’s housing, there’s making sure that children stay with their families and aren’t unnecessarily taken away from their parents. There’s disability work; there’s all sorts of human rights work. But liberty meant so much to me. Protecting people from the state taking their liberty away without due process was crucial for me. I really felt it. So becoming a public defender with the Legal Aid Society criminal defense practice in Brooklyn, where I live, was really an honor of my life. I still consider myself a public defender even though I’m not practicing anymore. I did that work for about seven years, which means, you know, your clients are people who live below the federal poverty guidelines.
They are targeted and arrested by the police. For me, it was the NYPD in New York City, and you know, it’s a racist, classist, misogynist, transphobic, and ableist system. Your clients are primarily people with marginalized identities, mainly black and brown, undocumented, disabled, and of course, low-income people. When you see that day after day, if you’re not careful about your own ability to oppress others, you inevitably will do it. Even if you believe you’re doing the right work, protecting the most vulnerable people, you will inevitably oppress others. As I went through- I was there for about seven years- I realized that if I entered the courtroom every day, you know, ’cause you’re in court almost all day, and all you see are Black and brown individuals sitting in the gallery, how are you not going to absorb that racism? You know, that’s not normal. Everybody participates in or commits crimes at the same level. It is not a racially different thing.
It’s about who gets targeted. If you’re not seeing the whole population of New York represented in the courtroom and you’re only seeing people of color, you inevitably will make that link of crime and people of color. It’s a racist thought. If you do not interrupt it, you will act on that racism while thinking you’re actually doing good work. It’s a very dangerous situation because of racism and all sorts of transphobia, ableism, and misogyny- I like to say, we inhale it, and then we exhale it. There’s no way you will inhale this oppression and not inevitably exhale it.
NICOLE
So did you find, even as a defender, that you were actually doing it- like, that was happening to you more than you had thought previous to going into that body of work?
POOJA KOTHARI
Absolutely. I mean, I’m sure my racism, ableism, and all of these oppressive beliefs that I had were there before I started my job. But once you become aware of it, and then you think back to the clients that you represented before you were aware, you start to understand, I don’t think I asked enough questions of that client. I don’t think I did an investigation that was as thorough as I could have. I think I made assumptions about what resources they had and maybe didn’t ask the question because I just assumed they wouldn’t have it. Then you’re not doing right by your client, and you’re not a good lawyer if you’re acting on biases that you don’t realize. So if I have racist beliefs or classist beliefs, and I mean, I do, it’s not if I do, I do, and I’m not aware of them, then I’m going to assume that my client can’t do something, or I’m going to assume my client did do something, and I’m going to assume a negative, and therefore I’m not going to do the proper lawyering that I should do. I can’t argue properly for my client because I’m unconsciously not giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Let’s say I have a classist belief that, oh, my client probably doesn’t have a job. If I make that assumption and don’t challenge it, then I can’t tell the judge the work that they do because maybe they do have a full-time job and they are centered in the community and have a huge support system. If I didn’t ask those questions, then I can’t tell the judge, “Please let my client back out into the community. Don’t set bail; don’t incarcerate them.” I can’t tell the proper story of my client if I haven’t asked the questions.
NICOLE
Yeah. So did you say that when you were a defender, did that cause you to start to really investigate more deeply the assumptions that you had, or was it more that you saw the system, or was it both? Like, you’re like, the system was outrageous to you, or you’re like, where am I participating in it?
POOJA KOTHARI
Yeah. Yeah. That’s a really great question. It’s both. You can see the system so clearly when you go into court. I always say to everybody, just go into your local criminal court because anyone can go into the court; it’s all public. Just watch for a day, and you’ll understand the ugly nature of our system.
But doing that deep work takes years. Yes, I started with myself, and I started questioning everything. The regret you feel for not having questioned yourself before, the guilt you feel- you have to process all of that to get to the other side and say, yes, I- now it’s very easy for me to say all the things I did wrong. But of course, you feel that guilt and shame upfront. Now, I have regret, but I don’t let that stop me from telling these stories and showing that just because I teach this stuff in the work that I do now about this awareness doesn’t mean that I don’t participate in it. Of course, I do. We’re all inhaling it, we’re all exhaling it. I just want to share with people, you know, other tips and skills to build so that you do it less.
NICOLE
Yeah, I mean, there are so many things that you’re sharing that I’m like, I have questions and thoughts and all of these pieces of it. Well, because I don’t think you knew this, but I used to be a journalist and I covered courts. So I covered federal courts at times, and I also did like, you know, you just end up in court all the time as a reporter breaking news. People are arrested; you happen. So I used to also experience that all the time too. It was interesting because I worked in Anchorage for a period, and there were often a lot of Indigenous people in the court, in the criminal system there. If you go to a big city, then you see more Black, Brown, and others as well.
It’s interesting, though, because I think back in that era when I was in my 20s, I wasn’t really deeply immersed in this work or thinking about it that way. I witnessed that experience constantly. I was thinking about that when you were sharing what it’s like to be in the criminal system because even to- I don’t remember what it was with my husband, but I was trying to explain what happens when you get arrested, and then you are arraigned, and then what happens in the criminal justice system? Because I just assume everybody knows, but he didn’t know. And bless him, it’s not because he’s not a curious citizen of the world, but he just doesn’t have experience in the criminal justice system, whereas I did.
As you know, and some of the listeners know, I was the chair of Yoga Behind Bars for several years on their board. I also experienced behind bars what it’s like, which is actually really significantly different from the criminal justice system. To me, they’re kind of two different problematic systems.
As you’re talking about it, I just realized too, I have been out of these things for many years, and how easy it is, like you said, for us to just go back to that way of like, you know, racism is all around us. We can pretend or be like, “Oh, that’s why we have the criminal justice system,” because we can say, “Oh, we’re just going to put them over there so we don’t have to think about it.” We don’t have to deal with the fact that we’re doing things like that. So anyways, I think that’s all really fascinating. But let’s fast forward now to today, current day, because you’re doing this work, and now it must be coming up all the time. There are just so many places where there are issues around equity. I’m curious where your work is today and what brought you to the place where you continue to do this after you were a public defender?
POOJA KOTHARI
Yeah, so, you know, after seven years, I burned out. I just couldn’t do it anymore. It was pretty mentally taxing. I have so many colleagues who are still there, and you know, everyone has their capacity. I’m grateful that there are always people who want to be public defenders. My colleagues who are still practicing are doing really amazing work. For me, it had to end around seven years, and I took a sabbatical.
I was part of the legal aid attorneys’ union, which had bargained for up to a year-long sabbatical, and I was able to take advantage of that. During that time, I thought about what I would do. Six months into it, I decided to start Boundless Awareness. That’s the company I founded almost ten years ago now. I feel like, how old am I? In thinking about what I was going to do next, I realized that when you’re a lawyer, you are really siloed in your work. You do criminal work; you only know criminal. It’s not like you just get that other experience automatically.
I thought, well, I’ve been doing anti-oppression work at Legal Aid for as long as I’ve been there. I’ve done a lot of deep work on myself, and then I reached out and started doing work with my colleagues. I wrote scripts, got trainers in, trained people myself, gave talks, and thought, you know, I really like this work, and I love teaching and education. So I took a bunch of courses in facilitation, education, and pedagogy. When I started Boundless Awareness, I was committed to creating through the pedagogy I learned. I use the experiential learning cycle, which is a Freirian pedagogy that really is an experiential way to bring people into the work. I knew I wanted to be lighthearted, use humor, be compassionate, and I also wanted it to be deeply experiential because you can’t just learn it in a lecture.
For ten years now, I’ve been building my own exercises. I facilitate my own curriculum. I’ve been to multinational corporations, very large universities, nonprofits, and tiny colleges. I just love raising people’s curiosity. With what’s happening in our current events, it’s more dire than ever that people have a way to analyze our world and a way to understand it that’s tangible and accessible, but also aligns with people’s learning styles. That’s what I developed, and I knew I wanted to continue the work. The human rights aspect of what I wanted to do has morphed into this way of bringing an understanding of how to analyze why we are here, what our society means, and how we got here. Teaching people history and doing it in an interactive way so they don’t forget it and can always access it.
NICOLE
So fascinating. I love the work that you’re doing. When you asked me to have the conversation, I think there’s always that moment where we really talk about the experience of inequity, how am I contributing to it, and how can I counter it in my own communities and my own world? It brought up a lot of questions for me. I’m like, okay, how do I participate in this? I have actively thought about this for a while. I feel like this is something that can be really challenging to look at within yourself, to see where you’re contributing to this, and then where are the places where you’re countering it? How can I find that balance for myself?
I’m curious because I work specifically with Asian American women. What can come up for us around it? Oftentimes, when you are Asian, you can feel kind of pulled in terms of like, it’s easier for Asian Americans and other people of color to be accepted into white spaces. That can bring the challenge of, wait, what’s happening here? Because I actually am not a white person; I am a person of color. I kind of think of it as this tension that happens a lot. I’m curious about the history behind that, the experience of it, and what we can do specifically to be more supportive of dismantling racism, classism, and all of the things you’ve spoken about in general.
POOJA KOTHARI
Yeah, yeah. You know, I’m sure you have so much experience in this also, especially with Yoga Behind Bars. There’s a seesaw of oppression and privilege. It’s really easy for everybody to access ways that they have been oppressed, the negative experiences we go through. Our brains are wired to remember them. The positive ones are like, you know, 9 out of 10 things you experience could be positive, but you remember the one negative thing. Our brains are just wired that way. So it takes a lot of practice to really have gratitude and understand, in this specific conversation, our privilege.
When I talk to people, I’m sure when you talk to your clients, it’s really easy for us to say, “I’m being oppressed in this way,” “I’m being discriminated against this way,” “I’m being highlighted negatively in this way.” For me, people can never say my name. There are many ways that all sorts of people pronounce it. Pooja is literally one of the most common names of Hindu people in India and around the world. I have several cousins named Pooja; it’s like the Susan of Hindu people. India has many religions, so I just want to be specific on that. Yet people here are like, “Oh my gosh, I know another Pooja.”
Of course, because it’s like, of course you do. Or people who anglicize- like my parents both anglicized their names in the ’70s when they came here. People still can’t pronounce their names. Many other Asian Americans anglicize or take on an English name, or they just are given an American name. There are all these ways we are trying to put this square peg in a hole that doesn’t fit. We’re trying to fit in. Maybe if we become that professional, earn enough money, change our name, or adopt that religion, maybe one day they’ll accept us.
Over time, this is why it’s kind of a seesaw. You feel that oppression of, “I’m still looked at as different, and there’s literally nothing I can do about it even though I have permanently done all these things.” I’ve passed down a different religion to my kids. I’ve named my kids different names, more Americanized names. At the same time, we have the white supremacy model minority myth, which amplifies Asians-not all, because there are many Asians, South Asians, East Asians, Southeast Asians in this country, in the United States who are living below the poverty line, and they are completely invisible.
This model minority myth only applies to Asians who came during the opening of the borders from 1965 to the late ’70s, where you basically walked into this country and got your citizenship. This was all intentional; it was a brain drain from other countries. I mean, it was all over the world, but it prioritized certain countries. Many Asian countries, South Asian, East Asian, Southeast Asian countries. That’s why people say, “Oh, I love how you Indians are all so smart.” And I’m like, what? What kind of- if someone can even say that? Someone might say, “But that’s such a positive thing.” Oh, they think your people- I mean, it’s so messed up in so many ways- are smart, but there are 1.3 billion of us in India. Are you going to say, like, you know, what are you talking about?
That confirmation bias happens because of that Immigration Act from 1965, those 15 years where it was so easy for professionals to come that white people, when they met people of color, South Asian and other Asian people, were like, “Gosh, all the Asians I’m meeting are professionals. They’re in business or doctors or engineers.” The myth and the white supremacy part of that myth, and the reason it’s not positive, is that it intentionally positions us between- so white will always be on top. By on top, I mean given the benefit of the doubt, given the opportunities, having safety, being seen as the authority. White will always have those benefits, and then it makes this hierarchy, which is why we feel like, “Oh gosh, why can’t people say my name?” You’re never seen as white.
White people see- and I’m not saying all white people, but the white supremacy structure, I’m not talking about individuals- sees white people at the top and black people at the bottom. In order to maintain that hierarchy, which has existed for hundreds of years, you bring in Asians as a wedge. Now, in order for Asians who are still discriminated against- I mean, there are all these Supreme Court cases that, of course, I can’t think of right now, but the Chinese Exclusion Act and the Japanese internment cases- there’s been horrific violence against Asians in this country. But now it’s used as a wedge so that there is no solidarity in that oppression.
Asians, Black people, and other people of color, Indigenous people, can never get that solidarity. If you tell Asians, “Well, you’re special,” I mean, you’re not white and you’re never going to reach our whiteness, but you’re special; you’re in the middle of the hierarchy, so you should be thankful that you have all of this power, resources, capital, land, whatever you’ve been able to access, and just be happy as individuals. That stops us from mobilizing and organizing with other people of color to stop white supremacy. It’s been so successful because we believe, “Oh my gosh, maybe I am special just because of my skin color, just because of where my heritage comes from.” That’s inherently racism. Anything based on your skin color- I mean, that’s just ridiculous.
NICOLE
Well, and it also brings up too, like, this is something I speak about a lot and I think about a lot because not only have we been positioned that way, but you also add in cultural pieces, right? Because culturally, Asians are always tending towards the whole and the collective. We’re not really taught culturally to speak up and to stand out because it actually goes against your family, it goes against what other people think of you. That is something that is really important in most Asian cultures, right? Now you kind of have this perfect storm of don’t speak out, don’t be different, don’t do anything that might damage the general- your family and the whole. That’s a tension I feel like all the time.
I always think that there’s a reason, right, that the Asian cultures- and there are so many reasons and backgrounds and histories- that that collective is the priority. Then you’re in America, which is a highly individualist society. It’s just an interesting tension. I feel like, you know, I don’t ever want people to feel helpless about this, so we’ll talk about ways to address it. I’m curious for you, then, what do you think about when it comes to equity and these systems? How can people start to address this for themselves to feel like they’re not at the mercy of this? That’s important to me personally, and I think to the women that I work with. How can we feel like we’re not just letting some other larger system have control over our lives and feeling helpless in the face of things?
I think in particular in the news, there’s just so much happening out there, it can feel very easy to be like, “Oh, I can’t do anything; I’m stuck; the world is falling apart.” That is very easy to feel, right? So what do you think about for yourself or for people you work with? How do we start to make movement and steps forward with this?
POOJA KOTHARI
Yeah, I think the first step is to analyze how the systems of power are acting on everybody all the time, every day, and to be able to distinguish systemic power and behavior and decisions that are made from the individual level. Sometimes they’re intertwined, but when you start looking at it, it’s easier to parse out what is an individual’s behavior or decision and what are the systemic pressures that might be on that. The analysis is to be able to step back, parse out our society for what it is.
The second thing is to look at what your values are. Are you a person that makes decisions based on your values? The majority of the time, do you make decisions based on your core values- honesty, integrity, transparency? These are the things I strive for every day in my relationships, friendships, with my children, and in my business, or as a public defender with my clients and supervisors. Are your values driving your decisions? A lot of people are; a lot of people aren’t. If you are, then I think the path is pretty easy. You just have to navigate what is meaningful and valuable to you.
But if you’re a person who definitely has values, but not necessarily every decision you make is aligned with your values, it’s okay. A lot of people live their lives that way. In that case, you still have to prioritize how exactly you’re going to get to your goals. What is it about your personality? I would say it’s more of a personality-driven person that is going to respond to insults, threats, and discriminatory decisions made against you. How are you going to get to the position of power that you ultimately are looking for based on your personality?
The third way is really evaluating how you want to live this life. Do you want to live it as a values-based person, or can it fluctuate? As a personality-driven person, you might not feel the stability that- and I’m just going to take a guess, but I think you’re a values-driven person, and so am I. We find a lot of stability in that because there really can’t be too much variation. So yeah, in facing all of these choices on equity, I think you got to see the world for what it is. Be able to parse it out and understand how systems and power are working for us and against us, then decide if you’re values-driven or personality-driven in your decision-making. Then decide what your goals are. There’s such a variation.
I would love to hear when you meet somebody who may not be as values-driven, what are the ways that you are able to talk to them about equity and fairness and navigating the corporate landscape and helping them out?
NICOLE
Yeah, well, I would say I take a slightly different tack on what you were saying. When I think of systemic oppression, their goal is to take away hope. They just want you to be despairing, and they want you to feel powerless. That’s to me the general goal of anything like that. My job is always to find hope. How do I make a decision or a choice that makes me feel hope? It makes me feel like I’m supporting people. It makes me feel like I am going against what those systems might want.
On a more practical level, when I got married, I was like, “Okay, how do I support people of color vendors when I get married?” Or within my business, how do I support vendors who are people of color? I had a baby last year, and I think about how I hired a doula who’s Black. I joined a people of color families group. I’m always looking at what brings me hope. I guess that would probably be in your world, maybe values-based choices. I always think, am I making a choice that feels like it’s going to bring hope into my life? It’s going to give my family what will help us feel expansive.
Even working with Asian American women, to me, helping them and supporting them to have hope in their lives and to understand the pathway ahead for them is crucial because we work a lot on promotion. We work on speaking up more. We work on how do you stop reacting so negatively and emotionally at work. All of those things really, to me, ultimately help dismantle those systems because that system doesn’t want you to be happy. It doesn’t want you to rise. It doesn’t want you to feel like you can have a joyful family life, honestly. That’s how I see it. I know it’s a different framework from what you were speaking to, but that’s the more boots-on-the-ground kind of thing of how I think about how we really bring equity into our lives and how we make choices that support, you know, I just don’t want to ever feel like I don’t have hope because then I feel like that system has won.
POOJA KOTHARI
Yeah, absolutely. Silence goes hand in hand with that lack of hope that people feel. You’re absolutely right; that’s what the systems want: for us to be quiet and just work and contribute.
NICOLE
Yeah, like you said about values, I do think about my values a lot. Mine are faith, fun, joy, and service. How can I be in integrity and service? How can I be doing all of those things in my life and then making decisions from that place? How can that ripple out with the people around me? There are so many ways, right? If you’re not aware of it, like you said, because I live in a city in Seattle that’s pretty segregated and white-dominated. If you’re not intentional, you can live in places that are not diverse. You also have to watch out that if you’re living in places that are diverse, are you part of that gentrification?
There are so many dials that you’re kind of dealing with all the time. With the families of color that I joined, we’re actually kind of all spread out around the city, and we talk about that. How are we raising our children to be in places that are diverse? My child is mixed race, so what will that experience be like for him? They’ve talked about that too. I also know from experience that being around people of color is how you also dismantle those internalized systems. That’s a huge part of it. But then what if you live in a place where that’s not possible or it’s difficult to do? How can you continue to be intentional about the spaces that you spend time in?
Anyways, I mean, it’s a long extended conversation about all of it. I always love having this conversation with you because it’s a reminder that we have to constantly be aware, and we have to constantly, no matter who you are, look at where you’re participating in a way that doesn’t support you. How can you make a choice to work it into a different way? I’m curious for you, how do you see it for yourself in daily life too?
POOJA KOTHARI
You know, I’m always reminded of Toni Morrison’s speech in the mid-’70s at a university, where she said, “The function of racism is distraction.” They’ll say your head isn’t the right size, or that you never had any history. They’ll say you never had any kings. Then you spend decades proving that you did. “No, I am good enough. I am good enough.” It’s a beautiful quote.
I think about that every day. Are we distracted, or are we on the mark? I think about it with my kids, with my wife, where we’re living, how we’re living, the decisions we’re making. Are we doing this in a way that’s dismantling racism, or are we doing it because we’re distracted by it? I don’t want to waste my time distracted by- when I say racism, I mean all types of oppression, right? Am I working towards disabling ableism? Am I being ableist? Am I using ableist phrases, being flippant about mental health or mental wellness, and just using it in a sentence because I’m too honestly lazy to think of the correct precise word that I want to use?
For example, in our house, we never use the word “stupid.” It sounds weird even saying it because I haven’t said it for over seven years. We don’t use the word “crazy” in our house. My kid will come home and say, “There’s a bad word in that book.” It’s the “S” bad word. I’m like, what kind of book are you reading? She means the word “stupid.” She will say, “Don’t read that book; it has a bad word in it.” We talk a lot about language in our house because I feel like that is one of the few things that is definitely in our control. What words are we using, and are we propping up these systems of oppression, or are we using our language to dismantle them slowly, especially dismantling our internalized oppression?
That being ableist is not okay. It’s not okay to use those phrases for me and my family. I will teach my kids how to look out for those words. So anyway, that’s just one example of kind of daily decision-making that we’re on the lookout for.
NICOLE
What you’re saying about distraction feels so key because I spend a lot of time with people being like, we really need to spend less time on social media, which we all know in theory. We all know to spend less time scrolling, or whatever. To me, it’s because those things are there to distract you. How do we stay informed and yet not distracted? It’s like, okay, I don’t actually think you need a lot of information to understand what’s happening in the world. You can read the headlines and know what’s happening. But if you get into a rabbit hole, that’s when you’re getting the distraction and the stress and all of these things, right?
To me, not being distracted is like what you’re saying with what you do with your kids or voting or whatever it is. There are lots of different things you can do that are intentional versus distracted, but it’s such a powerful one. I hadn’t heard it quite that way in the way that you framed it.
POOJA KOTHARI
I was like, oh yeah, that’s exactly it. Toni Morrison.
NICOLE
Yeah, I mean, she’s so brilliant.
It’s so powerful to have these conversations. Having conversations helps people understand and go more deeply into where that’s happening in their lives. I’m just honored to have this conversation with you, Pooja. What would you say for people who are like, “Okay, what’s that first step?” What would be a next step for them if they want to be a little bit more intentional? They want to see and go more deeply into the work you’re talking about.
POOJA KOTHARI
There are many things. I’ll come up with two. The first one is to find someone who is curious, compassionate, and non-judgmental. They can interrupt you if you’re saying something biased, and it’s easy for you to keep it moving and roll along and not get bogged down and feel bad. So find that person for you. For me, it’s my wife; it’s always been my wife, my partner. Find that person and learn with them.
The second thing is to read things that you agree with, then challenge the assumptions of why you agree with it. You know, we can all read things; there are plenty of things that we disagree with. Everyone can find something that they’re like, “Oh, this doesn’t align.” But find the thing that you’re like, “Yeah, I totally agree with this,” and then look at the assumptions behind it. When you take the LSAT or you’re in law school, you learn a lot about this word assumption. In every sentence, there is an assumption baked into it.
Let’s say someone says, “At some time in the future, we’re going to be living on Mars.” There are a ton of assumptions behind there, like, yeah, if we have the capacity to get there, if we have the fuel, if we have the power to get there, are we doing it with robots? There are all of these assumptions packed into that sentence. If you read a sentence, just be curious about what you have to believe in order for that sentence to make sense. What do I have to believe in order for me to agree with this sentence? That’s you finding the assumption in the sentence and challenging that assumption.
Why do I believe that one day we’ll live on Mars? Why do I believe that at the rate we’re going, we’ll have a planet to live on before we get to Mars? I mean, that’s another assumption in that sentence. Who will be able to live there? Is it the general population, or is it the elites? Those are the two things: find a friend who loves you and is willing to challenge you, and read something you agree with and challenge yourself on why you believe it.
NICOLE
Fascinating. I love that. So good, Pooja. Well, it’s time for our rapid-fire questions. Are you ready for this? They’re very easy.
POOJA KOTHARI
They’re very fun.
NICOLE
Okay. What was the last thing that you watched on television or a streaming device, whatever it is?
POOJA KOTHARI
Voyager.
NICOLE
Star Trek Voyager. You’re a Star Trek fan. Yeah, I always aspire to actually be a Star Trek fan. My husband’s a big Trekkie, but I have not watched a ton of it.
POOJA KOTHARI
Oh gosh, if you want to see the future, just watch Star Trek.
NICOLE
That’s what I know; that’s exactly it. One of my teachers is like, “Star Trek has all the answers in there, so you should really watch it.”
POOJA KOTHARI
Yeah, I’m so embarrassed right now.
NICOLE
Don’t be embarrassed; it’s so fun. I love hearing what people are watching. Okay, what is on your nightstand?
POOJA KOTHARI
Oh, it’s a book called ‘Pax’ by Sarah Pennypacker. I’ll send it to you. It’s about a boy and a fox; he adopts a fox when he’s really young, and then his dad makes him give it up. The rest of the book is about the fox. There’s a fox’s point of view, and then there’s a boy, and they’re both traversing the countryside to find each other again, and they’re like 300 miles away from each other. Each chapter goes back and forth from the fox moving forward to find the boy, then the boy moving forward, and he’s only like 11.
NICOLE
And you like it?
POOJA KOTHARI
The whole thing. I love fiction.
NICOLE
I’m always looking for a fiction book recommendation. It’s funny; when you’re talking about this, I’m reading ‘The True True Story of Raja the Gullible’ which won the National Book Award recently, but they use the word “stupid” a lot. It’s based in Beirut. It’s just a really cool story about a gay man who lives there and his relationship with his mother. He and his mother call each other stupid all the time.
Okay, just heads up, or don’t show it to your kids.
POOJA KOTHARI
Thank you. Yes.
NICOLE
Amazing. All right, which is why I love asking what people have on their nightstand so that we can talk about what they’re reading. I really should probably have the question of what did you read last because I’m always curious what people are reading.
Okay, and then the next question is, when is the last time you did something new, and what was it?
POOJA KOTHARI
I went sport climbing outside in Rumney, New Hampshire. That was new. I’ve done a lot of sport climbing indoors, like lead climbing. You take the rope with you and climb up. I learned how to put in anchors, which means the things you’re going to plug your rope into. It’s a several-step way of climbing. It’s not just climbing; you have to set up how you’re going to advance each step. I don’t know how to say it. Each move you make up the mountain, you’re figuring out how you’re going to get up there when you’re placing these bolts in the mountain. Anyway, I did that a few months ago. It was freezing, but it was wonderful. We camped, and then we climbed for several days. It snowed.
It was beautiful. So cool. I think of climbing as like chess on the wall, right? Because you have to kind of figure out every move. It’s very taxing on the brain and physically taxing.
NICOLE
Yeah, love it. Awesome. Okay, and the last question is, what are your top three most used emojis on your phone?
POOJA KOTHARI
Oh, okay. It’s the hug emoji. It’s a koala bear face.
NICOLE
Oh yeah, that’s cute.
POOJA KOTHARI
And then it’s a giraffe with the mouth bleeped out, so it’s like, oh, the giraffe is swearing.
NICOLE
That’s so cute. I love it because sometimes people tell me, and then I actually start using those emojis because it’s fun. I’m like, I didn’t know about the giraffe; I should use the giraffe.
POOJA KOTHARI
That’s fun. The koala face I just use to say hi to people. Instead of saying hi, I just send the koala.
NICOLE
You send the koala face? Oh, that’s really sweet. One time someone told me about the head melting emoji, which I never really used, but after she told me about it, I started using it all the time. I was like, this is really appropriate for a lot of situations.
Well, Pooja, where can people find you if they want to hear more about your work or talk to you about having you come into their nonprofit or their college or something?
POOJA KOTHARI
You can reach me directly at pooja@boundlessawareness.com. You can find me on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is the only social media platform that I truly use. You’ll find me at Boundless Awareness on LinkedIn, or just my personal page on LinkedIn is Pooja Kothari. So yeah, LinkedIn, my website, boundlessawareness.com, or just send me an email.
NICOLE
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for all your wisdom, your gifts, and sharing your knowledge with us today. I’m so grateful to have you here with us.
POOJA KOTHARI
Oh, Nicole, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. You’re such an amazing host. I really appreciate it.
NICOLE
Thank you so much everybody, for tuning into today’s episode. Before you go, don’t forget if you are a high-achieving woman who wants to uncover your biggest blind spots preventing fast intuitive decisions, I’ve got a 72-second assessment for you, so make sure to DM me “Quiz” on Instagram. Thank you for being here and for listening. We read every note that we get from you about how the podcast is making a difference in your life. Please know how much we appreciate each and every one of you. Until next time, I’m Nicole Tsong, and this is the School of Self-worth.
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